quote:

If I did have any diseased plants they would be turned into the soil and the same plants would be planted in the same area the folowing year.

Kimm, is that really good advice? I am frankly very surprised. It would kill me to turn under known diseased plants. They go straight on my burn pile or in the trash, thank you. My feeling is why take that chance that it will just come back again? The growing season is short enough without extra disasters. Why invite another one to ruin your day?

I would like a see a published study to back this claim, it goes against every written organic book outthere. If this was true, I'm sure Eliot Coleman would have written about it.

Now planting in a diseased soil does not automatically mean that you'll have diseased plants growing there, which might confure people into thinking that it's working.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by leafspot:
Number one I think that anyone who would incorperate sick and diseased plants into their soil has a loose screw in their cranium.[QUOTE]

Then count me as a nutcase.

Mine is a backyard garden with great variety, not a farm monoculture, so I don't throw away anything that comes from the veggies' beds. I figure diseased leaves fall from the plants on their own, and little fragments may hit the ground well before I have any chance to "sanitize' the area.
It would be very presumptuous of me to think that I can fend off diseases by simply removing and discarding affected plants, without considering that maybe by the time I detect something wrong, the offending pathogens are already in the soil.
Besides, how do you know where your plants' disease come from? If it's a soilborne disease, how good is it to remove and discard the affected plants?
And another thing to consider is that plants "under attack" of bugs and pathogens develop some kind of natural defense, even when they eventually succumb. So by discarding those plants you also throw away those compounds, those natural "antibodies" which are your soil's only weapon to achieve a possible balance.
And balance is the key to a healthy garden.

Gee whiz guys (or what ever) nice discussion.....you want to argue??? Who you gonna vote for for pres?????????

Is Carroll a male or female name? Who was Carroll O'Conner? Is Lee a male or female name? There are several people of both genders with that name. Making an assumption based on little information except past experience, or invalid information, is prejudice. We all have prejudices, whether we want to or not.

Plants want to grow up strong and healthy. Plants that continuely are affected by disease are not good and healthy and the reason can be traced back to the soil and the nutrients that are available from that soil. Friend Sykes sold his very successful farm and bought another that had ben unprofitable for years and was really sick but by applying the principals that Sir Albert Howard wrote about turned that sick, unprofitable farm into a good, healthy, profitable farm, without spraying poisons around because they would have cut into the profits that farm could raise. Make your soil into a good, healthy soil that grows strong and healthy plants and you will not need to concern yourself about pesticdes or fungicides to control plant diseases because they will not be in your garden. That is organic gardening.

For someone as stringently pedantic as you are, Kimm1, you of all people should realize that the term "prejudice" (which you were so kind to provide an almost word-for-word dictionary definition for) is most often used to describe someone forming an "unfavorable" rather than a "favorable" opinion of someone or something "based on little information except past experience, or invalid information" (right from you & good old Webster's Dictionary).

I'm interested to understand why you feel so obviously threatened because some folks assumed you were female rather than male? Did/does being considered a female poster offend you in some way? Have something against the girls? Sounds much more like "prejudice" on YOUR part to me - LOL!!!!

Oh - & you can toot your horn about turning diseased plants into the soil & your opinion about what organic gardening is about all you want. What you keep missing is that that's YOUR OPINION. It's not only NOT etched in stone, but no one here has to take it as the Word of God. I'm sure that's rather frustrating for you, but unfortunately that's the way it is.

On these forums all of us express opinions.
Sometimes our opinions are backed by facts, sometimes by past experience, sometimes by hearsay, and sometimes it's just one's vague perception of reality. Whether something is true and valid about gardening practices is up to the reader to determine.

Kimm1 has years of practicing what he preaches under his belt. I respect his opinion because it makes sense, and I don't believe the guy has any reason and motives to steer individuals in the wrong direction. Perhaps for a lot people what Kimm1 advocates is hard to grasp, because he doesn't promise quick results and immediate gratification, but what he proposes is far more important and sound than a lot of other gardening methods. Wanting an organic garden is a praiseworthy goal, but wanting AND crating an organic environment is even more commendable.

It's regrettable (but I can't say not unexpected considering how many times this subject has been run around the course and still put away wet)...it's regrettable that this discussion had to degenerate into the personal.

I suppose the only way to appease Kimm's concerns about what constitutes prejudice as well as his apparent inability to grasp semantics, is to have everyone who is uncertain about another poster's gender hereinafter address that poster as "It" or "He/She" or "Him/Her". Or something equally ambiguous.

In all seriousness, this does seem to be the only logical solution for any member who may feel as gender-maligned as Kimm. Although, I seriously doubt there is any other member who would be so offended and make such an issue out of something that is not at all germane to the subject of this or any other thread.

On another note, I have probably as many years as Kimm1 of "practicing what I preach under my belt". (If I wore a belt that is). I'd like to think I'm more tolerant than some people who, at times, come across as pontificating zealots. I think just disagreeing is sufficient. For me anyway.

I also, don't give a rat's behind about someone's motives for posting anything. That's their prerogative, their concern, problem or their issue. Unless, of course, it's spam for profit. But I don't have to go there.

Octave, your statement that the members here (who may simply disagree w/Kimm's 'advice' **see: "opinion"**) find it "hard to grasp" because they want "immediate gratification", insinuates that we are lame and adillpated, and also that we know zilch about gardening organically. That's an insult to the members who have been here a week, a month and a real kick in the butt and slap in the face for those who have plied these forums for years and years and years.

To paraphrase Breezy, none of what anyone says here is the word of God or Gods or whatever deity you choose. In my own garden, amongst my own plants, maybe..."Yes". But even then, I'm usually trumped by a Higher Power whose er..."Opinion" carries more influence than my paltry input.

Now I beleive that this post was about rotations. Now Kimm1 does have very interesting point of view, but I would like the see it backed up with a good source or study. Rotations is one of the key factors of success in commercial organic growing, it's been developped thousands of years ago and there is no doubt that it's a proven concept.

We must also be careful and differentiate disease from fungies like blight. I doubt that burying blight infested plants will help anything... I appreciate your theories Kimm1, but I wouldn't want a whole forum of people burying late blights and other fungis.

Also rotations are not only for disease control but are important pest control and for keeping a good soil. Different crops requires different amount of nutrients. A well balance rotation helps with building your soil, especially when incorporating green manures and legumes. If you were to plant high demanding crops at the same place every year, you risk loosing the quality of your soil and crops.

Tomatoes are an exception to this, as they don't mind to grow in the same soil every year, unless there is fungis or diseases in the soil.

Now I appreciate Kimm1's comments, it's certainly an interesting theory worth investigating on, but new gardeners should be carefull when reading this.

I am trying to keep an open mind about Kimm's idea. The only thing that I can relate it to is a flu shot. Maybe he is thinking if the flu germs (analogy) from the diseased plant gets incorporated into the soil, (like getting a small dose of the virus in the shot), then maybe the soil will increase it's immune system (if you will) against that particular thing and be better for it? I can not think of any other reason why anyone would do it. Like Andre, I am waiting for some support for this idea. Intelligence allows for change. But a little proof never hurts the cause, either.
(only 50 words in my run on sentence! Beat that)

quote:

Originally posted by Andre:

Tomatoes are an exception to this, as they don't mind to grow in the same soil every year, unless there is fungis or diseases in the soil.

I beg to differ on that. If I know of one crop which, in my experience, resents being grown in the same spot again and again, it is tomatoes. I find that tomatoes just love new ground, and the "stinkier" and more "rotten" (like a compost bin, or where the compost bin used to sit), the better. After a few years of growing tomatoes in the same spot production begins to decline, unless one has huge amounts of compost to add constantly, throughout the whole season and not just at bed preparation time.

BTW, although I mostly agree with Kimm1's views, I do believe that, at least in theory, completely disease free plants are a nearly impossible goal to achieve, and not because there is something wrong with one's organic gardening practices, but rather because in nature every organism is entitled to have its chance at living and procreating. Those pathogens (or pests) that attack our prized vegetables are just fighting for their own survival, and sometimes they'll win, other times they'll lose, but the most important thing is to keep the "game" going, because in nature nothing can stop. Personally I don't strive as much for a plant that never catches a disease, as I do for one that can successfully recover from most afflictions.

Kimm, no, you dont rotate perennials. We have established that. Everybody knows that. But, how many oak, pecan, walnut, willow, peach, apple, hickory, maple, etc trees, or hedgerow, devils bush, gardenias, etc, do you see with squash vine mosaic virus?, or fusarium wilt?, or attacked by tomatoe hornworms, or squash vine borers?....
Again, you are comparing monkeys to turtles.
Perennials arent heavy feeders either, Thus they can thrive in the same place for many years. Without feeding or cultivation of any kind.
And I must admit. I too thought you were a lady till I heard you say something about your wife not too long ago. Which dont mean anything these days..but I did think you were a lady.

Perennials generally have deeper roots than annuals and can draw up nutrients from greater depths.

What you guys doing? Playing cards!

Someone needs to tell all these bugs and viruses (TSWV especially) in the South about not bothering healthy plants.

Dirt (a guy - confident of his masculinity! And the pic exists to prove it!)

I am not threatened by others prejudices, but apparently many others are threatened with the idea they might be prejudiced. we all do have prejudices, like it or not.
There have been studies done. Dr. Leon Hoitink at Ohio State University, as well as many others at many other Universities, that show that plants grown in good, healthy soils will better resist plant diseases and insect pests than plants grown in soils that are not good and healthy. For some this is an extremely difficult concept to grasp, but if not true you would not be seeing so many of todays garden writers telling you this very thing.