Although I am adding organic matter throughout the year, my soil does need tilling every couple of years. It is very hard clay and any soil admendments I add disappears fast, in my garden and raised beds.

Ruth Stout, whose books promoted the no till method,had sandy soil. Thats a big difference from the clay I work with. Just remember, overtilling does destroy soil structure. You need to work with your soil and decide for yourself what works best.

My garden grows a bit larger every year. And no, half of it is not wasted space. The bigger it gets, the more I get to fill it. Let no one tell you what size garden yours should be.

If your soil becomes compacted enough to require tilling periodically then you are not adding enough organic matter to it. Any soil, with sufficient levels of organic matter, will be loose and workable without tilling, and one really good means of determineing if you have enough OM in your soil is to count the number of earthworms you have per shovel full of soil. In a good, rich soil that will easily be 10 or more earthworms per shovel full of that soil, and getting that shovel ful lof soil will be very easy requiring only what every effort is needed to lift that soil up. No effort will be needed to insert the shovel into that soil.

Kimm1 I started in July 2 compose piles, manure and straw, and I have been adding to them garden and kitchen veg., waste. Every time I turn them I add alflafa meal, and water if they are dry. I also laid next years garder out on paper, using the grass walkways between the plant rows.. I don't know if I will have enough compost to add to the plant rows. What else would you sugguest to add? I am also seeding down the whole garden for the winter.

There are some places that sell compost. What I have done to build my soil is grab everyone's leaf bags and leave them out back all winter. I poke some vent holes so water can escape and walk on them occasionally to crunch the leaves up. I found this keeps them from blowing around and sometimes worms find their way in through the holes. This makes a great amendment in the spring.

Thank you, was looking on the web for a larger cart to haul the leaves when they start to drop. I have lots of leaves of my own. Six large oak trees, 3 maples, 2 apple and a pear. Someone told me the oak leaves were not good for the garden because of the tanic acid in them.

I haven't had trouble with any leaves. Most leaves have more or less tannic acid. The roots of black walnut trees give off jugulone, which can inhibit growth of some plants, but I don't know if their composted leaves would be a problem. Perhaps someone here has read research on this.

punxsy, that is an old myth that keeps getting recirculated, although I see someone added a bit more with the reference to tannic. All tree leaves are acidic, back in the 1970's Organic Gardening magazine had an article about the pH of tree leaves and because of that article I did my own test of various tree leaves and found that, yes, they all tested out to be acidic, Maple leaves 3.2, Oak leaves 3.7 and others ranging in between.
In your soil, or compost pile, those leaves, when digested go to near neutral pH. A study, reported in the pages of Organic Gardening magazine a couple of years ago, done at the New Haven Agricultural Research Station be Dr. Abigail Maynard showd that in plots of soil that had Oak leaves added, for years, there was no significant change in soil pH due to those leaves. In a plot that had pine needles added for years there was no significant change in soil pH. Numerous other studies show the same thing and I have not seen one study that supports the theory that Oak leaves will make soils acidic.

Thank you Kimm1. I can tell my neighbor to go pound lime. The first year I moved there I hauled all the leaves to where I was going to make my garden the next year, my neighbor laughed at me and said I better buy lots of lime because nothing would grow there because of the leaves, so I hauled them all back off and dumped them in the woods. Think I will go see if they are still there.

Well! I thought it was a no no too and *dug* up my first garden! (obviously very small! Are the experienced gardeners laughing at me? ) I know I will get me one next year! It may even be bigger!

Great topic that has generated lots of interest.

Tilling the soil has been in practice since recorded history. Such a method must be OK with such a history, and it certainly works as we can see without looking very far.

My self, I would not garden at all if you took away my roto tillers. Yes I have two, one a Troybilt Horse, and the other a 6 foot wide one on the back of a 50 horse power tractor.

My veggie garden is just a small 150 x 45 feet this year. I have cut back a bunch since the kids left home.

Much of my garden is planted in rows 32" apart. This lets me run the Horse between them when the plants are small to get the weeds.

Squash, cukes and tomatoes are planted in rows 6 to 8 feet apart. Corn in rows 36" apart.

No, I don't think the space between the rows is wasted space. Before the plants get done growing they are in each others space. Plants need space and sunlight and room for their roots to grow without competition if they are to reach their full potential.

Mulch is added in many places, and if a crop gets finished I plant a cover crop in that space, which later is tilled in to become worm food then plant food. At the end of garden, I add leaves, then till in everything including standing corn stalks. I put more back into the soil than I take out.

In the spring I till very shallow, just before planting to make a nice seed bed. I don't like deep tilling in the spring. Any subsequent tilling to cultivate and remove weeds is very shallow too.

As far as digging up dormant weed seeds, I don't care. If they germinate and grow a bit they will just end up mulch and worm food. Fine with me.

What I am trying to say is that you can use your tiller without feeling guilty. Do what works for you. Try other methods if you wish. But do plant and do enjoy your garden. It is not only a great hobby, but a great source of food.



Now here is a tiller for ya. I just finished tilling up a spot 150 feet by 20 feet. I am moving my veggie garden over away from those trees you see in the background. Try that with your lasagna method.

Amen to that.

As to a large garden resulting in 50% wasted space, that's pure nonsense. The two are not related in any way. About the only way to "waste" space in a garden is to plant everything in narrow rows divided by too many paths, or to pave over your compost pile.

Our largest market garden is about 100 by 400 feet (bit less than an acre). We plant virtually everything except corn and squashes in beds 2-3 feet wide with narrow access paths between. We interplant long- and short-season crops, sow cover crops in unused beds, put up little mini-compost piles anywhere there's pulled weeds or a spent crop, and use a little Mantis tiller to till up a bed for replanting whenever common sense dictates it -- for example, to clean up and loosten a bed for replanting, or planting with a seeder instead of hand broadcasting. Every square inch is used for cropping, composting, access, or some other vital function.

Even that juicy little place in the middle where we put up a big canopy with two chairs and a lined half-whiskey tub full of cold water for soaking our feet on a hot day, is not "wasted."

Sorry, Kimm1, but I can't abide folks who speak nonsense with such authority.

I think that the best way to garden is the way each and everyone of us gardens. The only wrong way is not to garden at all.
What makes the difference if one of us uses a tiller, someone else uses a spade or yet someone else is a lasanga gardener. The thing is that we are all planting, harvesting and eating the freshest, healthful produce available.

The same holds true for thoses of us that space our rows 30" apart or plant in wide rows or raised beds. Before I moved into town I lved on an acre of ground and had a 50' x 150' garden plus a 25' x 150' garden. The only time I had to garden was after work and on weekends. I used two tillers. A large one for preparing the ground and a small one for weeding etc. My rows were 30" apart. Now that I live in town and my whole lot is not much bigger that my garden was in the country I garden in raised beds. No tiller needed and every inch of the beds are planted.

People once used Arsenic as a pesticide. Just because people have done something since forever does not mean that practice needs to be continued if there are better ways to accomplish the same thing. These 8 words, "but we have always done it that way", do more to stop progress then anything else.
Why do we do what we do?
Is there a better way?
Keep in mind there is an ogre in progress.