No Octave, I am not saying the illegal aliens are the problem with the auto industry. I was just saying that is a part of what we need to do to recover. I started that paragraph you quoted with the word “Also”. That means it was an additional thought to what was already stated above.

People spending too much on things they can't afford and can't pay for is the problem with this economy. It is that debt that is bad. The banks then sold that bad debt to others. So when the people couldn't pay for loans or credit that they never should have had in the first place that is what brought that bad debt to the surface. Now others are trying to spend their way out of the bad debt and that just can't be done. Nobody can spend their way out of debt.

But how do you expect things to ever get better when the base for our future rests with our young people. When those same young people can't get the jobs they used to have 20 years ago, to establish their work histories, because the illegal aliens have them, then what do our kids do? How do our kids work their was up the work history ladder? Not everyone has parents that can afford to send their kids to collage and not every well paying job needs a collage degree.

But when our kids can't even get entry level work to prove that they can handle better jobs in time, then how do those kids buy the cars the auto industry needs to sell in the future when they can't get a job because they have no work history?

So, while illegal aliens are not the main cause of your auto industry problem they are a part of it as they can't pay for the things that they were sold on credit. And in addition they stop our own kids from entering the workforce so our kids can work their way up and become responsible earners and consumers so they can buy those cars you are talking about. Very few people are lucky enough to start out their working history in the middle of the ladder so that they can afford new cars.

Ha ha ha - yeah, the white kids in this area are totally clamoring for jobs picking asparagus. Right.

Major,

The whole argument of yours is so preposterous that you sound like you may be coming from another planet. Clearly you have already determined--a priori--that illegal immigrants are one of the biggest causes of our financial turmoil, but your reasoning is faulty, and you never prove your points. You never mention what "those jobs young people used to have 20 years ago" are.
You grossly generalize.
You evaded my question about the automotive industry, and went on saying that "illegal aliens are part of the problem because they can't pay for the things that they were sold on credit." If there is any truth at all to this statement, I'd like to know who gives credit cards to illegal immigrants--BANKS, perhaps?---, because last I knew one is supposed to put a social security number on any CC application, right?, and the credit institution is supposed to check and verify those data, right?..

So, major, your finger truly is pointed at the wrong target. Check your sources, and try to form opinions based on DOCUMENTABLE facts rather than a bunch of biases and hearsay.

Octave,

Why are you so hung up on such a very small point? The illegals are just a very tiny part of the hindrance to recovery, not the cause of the problem. A very small part of recovery and you act like I am saying it is the only thing. You are confusing ideas of recovery methods with the cause of the problem.

As I said before, what the cause of our financial turmoil is, is BAD DEBT. That BAD DEBT is caused by anyone that has spent on credit more than they can pay back. And nobody can spend their way out of debt.

As for your statement that you need a SS number to get credit, SS numbers can be made up, bought or stolen and that happens every day in this country. And besides there are millions that are born here and have real SS numbers that still are not good credit risks.

I didn't answer you question about the auto industry because it has very little to do with the main subject of this thread.


PS: I welcome immigrants from all over the world, it's the illegals that we don't need. And yes, there is a big difference.

quote:

PS: I welcome immigrants from all over the world, it's the illegals that we don't need. And yes, there is a big difference.

Well, that is a relief, being an immigrant myself.

But the problem with that statement is we DO need people doing the work the illegal immigrants are doing. And that work would *not,* in general, go to our current crop of HS kids, many of which refuse to even work in fast food, never mind farm work! Besides, they can work in farm work if they want - I know HS and college kids who did and do - but they were a minority, and current school laws make it difficult to get out of school for the extended times needed during, say, asparagus picking, like they were allowed to in the past.

So, saying that we "don't need" them is simply not true. They are not stealing American jobs anymore than the customer service jobs that are being outsourced to India are stealing American jobs. *We* are stealing American jobs b/c we expect a (cheap) price that can only be achieved through lowering the quality of goods and using cheaper labor. Employers want us to buy their product and they employ people who will work for them for a cheap price, and we want cheap apples and cheap asparagus and cheap underwear and think we can only shop at certain cheap stores so hence we perpetuate the cycle.

Blaming that cycle on illegal immigrants is unfair. Am I saying that they are blame*less*? Of course not! But my grandfather came to this continent through less than honorable means (lied about his trade) - so should I be punished b/c of that? Or b/c I am white and speak fluent English and immigrated legally to this country I am of more value as a human being?

As long as we've had humans we've had a us/them attitude - the area I grew up in it used to be the "regular" whites vs. the Italians vs. the Russians, and within two generations has switched to the above groups becoming fairly homogenous but "against" the Hong Hongese and East Indian folks. <heavy sigh>

Human beings are not perfect in intent or practice, and I'm certainly not saying illegal (or legal) immigrants are blameless - but please, let's realize that we're all here in this country trying to make a go of it and raise our children and grandchildren to a healthy maturity.

And Major, I completely agree with you that we can't spend our way out of debt! That is a source of continual amazement to me that that's touted as a solution to our problems - I say that now and I said the same thing when Bush gave me a check (which I promptly used to pay off debt!). Let's plant more victory gardens, for a start of our way out of debt.

CountryKitty - Thanks for the interesting thoughts on the military. Hmm.

For what it is worth I agree with you for the most part canadiyank. Exporting our jobs is a big problem and is another part of the “fix it” puzzle. That “fix it” puzzle has way more pieces than what we have touched on here. But it is still all the debt that is dragging us down and we can't simply spend our way out of that. At least we agree on that.

And another “by the way” some of my ancestors where here before the Vikings or Columbus “found” this land so almost everyone is an immigrant as I see it. I can live with that just fine. And while I may look white to some I don't tan when I have been in the sun too long. I turn red and stay that way.

But illegal is illegal and should not be seen as anything other than illegal. In some ways using these illegal workers isn't much different than when this country used slaves. Should we allow slavery again too because a few think there is a need for cheap labor? I hope that is not what everyone seems to imply by hiring those illegal aliens at such a cheap rate.

I agree with you about the way illegal immigrants have been used/abused. There are way too many "indentured servants" scenarios you hear about. I certainly don't have all the answers, my point is that saying we don't "need" undocumented workers is inaccurate. I grew up in an area where the "WOPS" of my grandparents' generation were looked down upon b/c of their illegal status and ethnicity yet they are successful business people, doctors, lawyers, local gov't officials, etc. two generations later. I always joke that this country's "WOPS"'s grandkids are going to be the doctors taking care of me when I'm wearing diapers again.

I don't have the answers, and I don't think spending our way out is the answer, ugh! I guess I just have compassion for undocumented workers, having been raised amongst the grandkids of WOPs and the children of draft-dodgers.

I don't know if I should even jump into the fray here; maybe it's not possible for me to be unbiassed. My husband used to be an illegal immigrant (fear not, he's got papers now! ). Some of his friends and relatives have also come here illegally. The illegal immigrants I have known over the years have worked mostly in the following fields: agriculture, nurseries, gardening and landscaping, other hard physical labor, housecleaning, food service (for Spanish-speaking clientele). I don't think I had the stamina for any of their jobs when I was 30 years younger than I am now. Also, the economy here is so bad right now, that many immigrants from Mexico and other Latin American countries (whether here legally or not) have been heading back home.

I'm not defending illegal immigration (although if it never ever happened, I'd probably be living alone with a bunch of cats right now ). But I do believe that the U.S./Mexico relationship should be handled with care. There's more to it than meets the eye.

--J--

I don't know why we need to have "illegal"immigrants to begin with. Just document them all and let them in as temporary workers. Make them pay taxes too. Protect their basic rights too so they are not abused. It's like we want to cover our eyes and "pretend" that we don't want them here to protect our own wallets. It is less expensive for us to buy our veggies with illegals, but is it worth it? If any "kids" want those jobs, they can have them. Give a tax break to people who use citizens instead of temporary workers since it will cost us all less in services most likely. Instead of kicking out the illegal workers when you find undocumented workers just document them and give a big fine to the employer instead. Things would change fast if the burden was on the business instead of the worker.

Actually, you can "spend" your way out of debt, it all depends on what you spend on. If you spend on a fishing rod instead of fish, you have "spent" your way into saving money. The problem the stimulus package isn't doing that. Instead it is throwing good money after bad.

Here in my job we have spent YEARS beholden to the pharmaceutical companies for money to do research. This results in large numbers of "new" pharmaceuticals which are not really needed by the public but advertising creates a demand. The industry has produced toenail fungus pills that can cause death as a side effect, but only work marginally better than say soaking in Listerine. Or perhaps drugs to treat shyness. Get a grip! We need real basic research that will cause real change. Not drugs to line pharmaceutical company pockets. So many questions. Why is there so much autism now? What are the effects long term of various chemicals in our bodies? GMO's? These things can only be funded by tax dollars because Big Pharm and Big Chem won't make an immediate profit. Yet we have been letting industry direct all the research. Let them foot the bill but please don't put the cat in charge of the mouse.

Should a pharmaceutical company be in charge of safety testing on it's own product? Has this worked well for us? Make them foot the bill yes, but not run the studies please.

We also need to realize it is all about quality of life for everyone, not the almighty dollar and big business. Let GM go out of business and give the stimulus money to smaller start up car companies as long as they can employ the workers that would be let go.

I guess I am just too simplistic.

I think I have some of those toe fungus pills. I took one, it gave me a tummy ache, and then I sat down and read the info sheet from the pharmacy. I think I would rather have the fungus, thank you very much! (Vics Vaporub worked rather nicely on the toenail fungus--it worked even better than the tea tree oil.)

--J--

Adirondakgardener and octave, I am not as political as many in this country but I feel like there is a middle ground in this discussion. I am not going to make excusses for George Bush. He made alot of bad decissions, especially on his spending. I will say he didn't do it all by himself- he had help from congress. Never the less he signed the spending bills and I hold him responsible. I also think his spending was chump change compared to what is going on now. I am 65 years old and this is the first time in my life I am really scared for the future of our country. I blame the republicans but I also blame the democrates for the housing problems. We are in a big mess but both parties are to blame, if we are going to be honest about it.
I agree with octave about our immagrints. We do want and need them to do the work our own citizens don't want to do. I also agree with Major the the problem is bigger than that. I live in Alabama and we have many illegal immagrants. They are not picking asperagus. They are in our factories and business taking well paying jobs. The children are in school and and don't even speak English, not to mention the health care costs. We should have guest workers and be able to keep track of and make sure their working conditions are humane.
These are all big subjects and can't be covered on this board, but I think we should all be aware and try to pull this country back together again.
owl

[QUOTE]Originally posted by owlhollow:
A I am not going to make excusses for George Bush. He made alot of bad decissions, especially on his spending. I will say he didn't do it all by himself- he had help from congress. Never the less he signed the spending bills and I hold him responsible. I also think his spending was chump change compared to what is going on now. I am 65 years old and this is the first time in my life I am really scared for the future of our country. [QUOTE]

Yeah, you'd better be scared.
And yet, you are amongst some lucky ones who lived to be 65: what about those who are now 20, 25, 30, and have family and kids to support?
How do you feel about them? How do you feel about your children and grandchildren, who are, in essence, YOUR/OUR responsibility?

As for our former president, well, he didn't limit himself to bad spending (which you still seem to condone by comparing it to Obama's stimulus bill); he DEREGULATED business to the point that it got to defy accountability.
As ecsoehng effectively said, " the cat was put in charge of the mouse". Very concerning move, if you ask me.

Plus, read also how the wonderful, creative accounting of the past administration concealed the real cost of the ongoing wars, which to me still counts as major spending:

http://www.startribune.com/pol...77K_3c:%3Cimg%20src=

Can't you see how minuscule the illegal immigrant problem becomes by comparison? And how those who choose to primarily focus on it are still essentially hiding their heads under the send?

I am not sure what point you are making about me living to the age of 65 and about the children and grandchrildren.
As far as condoning the Bush administration for their spending because I am comparing it to the Obama spending- I think you are reading something I didn't say. I am very worried about the Obama spending but that doesn't mean I am excusing the Bush spending.
As far as the illegal immigrant problem, I don't see it as minuscule at all, at least not here where I live. I didn't even mention the crime rate around the country. I think most immagrants are decent hard working people but we need to take care of our own citizens first.
owl

quote:

Originally posted by owlhollow:
I am not sure what point you are making about me living to the age of 65 and about the children and grandchrildren.owl

My point is: consider yourself lucky, and try to see your glass more half-full than half-empty.
In other words: count your blessings.

Nobody knows what kind of things we are all going to face in the future, but if we view the situation from a broader perspective, there have never been certainties in human history.

So this will be just another phase. The pendulum will again swing from one direction to the other, and those of us who were born in the right place at the right time, and when the pendulum was somehow right in the middle and far from the extremes, where we got used to a certain degree of political stability, comfort, and prosperity are the lucky ones who got to live better lives.
But you can't stop that pendulum, which is now gaining momentum...

As for illegal immigration, I still believe it is definitely minuscule if compared with the other, bigger problems this country must face in a relatively short time. I hate to see immigrants become the scapegoat for social discontent, and only because they are easy target.

I do consider myself lucky to have lived when and where I have. I am healthy and happy and have been most of my life. Although not rich I have a place to live and plenty of food for my table. I will not be effected much no matter what happens with the rest of the country but I hate to see our country not prosper as it has in most of my lifetime. I will have no influence on the decisions made for us except for my vote. If this wonderful country goes down I will still have a place to live and food on my table as most of my food is provided by us and we could do even more if necessary.
I have enjoyed this short conversation where we can agree a little and disagree a little with out tempers rising and insults. thanks
owl