quote:

Yes franeli, I know what happened in Iceland. Their government spent more than they were able to take in and their government went bankrupt.

I thought what happened in Iceland was their banking system (on which the entire economy was hinged) was over-leveraged. When the banks couldn't refinance their short-term debt, there was a run on deposits by primarily foreign investors. It wasn't government spending that caused the crisis – in fact, it may only be through government spending that a total collapse is averted.

This thread is very political, which as all regular OG posters should know by now, is not permitted on these forums.

We try not to be political, but sometimes the political is personal and vice versa. Sometimes it is almost impossible to separate the two--it might require surgery.

--J--

Major, I think you have been vidicated in your assumption that illegals are getting good jobs, not just picking veggies. I am sur most have heard what happened in Washington state last eek when 25 illegals were arrested working in a plant that rebuilds Honda engins. There were over 400 people applied for those 25 jobs. We have a Honda plant here and I can tell you alot more people would love to work there if they could. My point being is with unemployment as high as it is we need to help our citizens out as much as we can. A side note is the 25 were released and given papers to work legally in this country. Now they are accounted for and hopefully will have insurance and pay taxes to pay their way.
owl

Even more alarming than poor people illegally crossing the border for the opportunity to clean houses or do agricultural work is having to have legal immigrants come here to do higher paying jobs that U.S. citizens lack the training, skills and know-how to do. I may suck at math and science and have no aptitude as an engineer, but surely some of my countrymen and women are trainable? I'm not saying we shouldn't have well-educated people from other countries coming here legally to work, but our people need to get good jobs too.

Also, not all of our young people are college or university material; surely there are still trades that can be taught at trade schools. Now I've probably gone off topic. Oh well.

--J--

He was talking about jobs for kids--neighborhood landscape work; summer jobs at resorts; fast food (yechch, but it's a paycheck). Also, illegal aliens tend to be concentrated in sheet rock work, meat packing and concrete work and hotel/motel maintenance. The people hurt most by this tend to be high school dropouts and native minority groups.

Oh gosh.......I do volunteer work for Refugee/Immigration Services in my hometown. I have worked with a family from Afghanistan.Mom and 5 kids, for 5 years. Horrible stories of Mom's upbringing and worse for her children. Dad finally got over here after family thought he was dead...for 3-4 years. They help me so much with my garden, mowing, etc. Wish all refugees were so thoughtful and attentive.

I heard on the news today that kids looking for summer and/or afterschool jobs were having to compete with adults for the jobs, but the adults weren't immigrants (legal or illegal), they were unemployed professionals who couldn't find work in their professions. That's how bad the economy has been lately.

--J--

I m not very sure.. but Ive heard what most politicians do.! Even I m not sure you can connect the dots between States and Iceland.
Thank You.

I think same as dirt do...this is really a waste of money guys...But what can we do to stop it...we cant even raise our voice towards these politicians!!!

quote:

I am sur most have heard what happened in Washington state last eek when 25 illegals were arrested working in a plant that rebuilds Honda engins. There were over 400 people applied for those 25 jobs. We have a Honda plant here and I can tell you alot more people would love to work there if they could. My point being is with unemployment as high as it is we need to help our citizens out as much as we can.

Arresting illegals won't effect any change unless you also arrest the individuals who are hiring them. I don't know the details of this case, but I would bet money that no one from Honda was arrested or fined. You cannot create a demand for cheap labor and expect it to go unfilled. Why is it that Honda hired those 25 illegals over any of the 400 other applicants? There is much more to this story, and many more questions to be asked than what you reveal here.

Today's NY Times reports that immigration from Mexico to the US has plummeted in the last 2 years, down 25% from 2007/2008. Immigration spikes during flush economic times, and falls during a downturn – the same thing happened in 2001 after 9/11, so if any connection is to be made, it's that high levels of immigration, both legal and illegal, signify a robust, expanding economy – one that should, in theory float all boats, according to the precepts of Capitalism.

quote:

Even more alarming than poor people illegally crossing the border for the opportunity to clean houses or do agricultural work is having to have legal immigrants come here to do higher paying jobs that U.S. citizens lack the training, skills and know-how to do. I may suck at math and science and have no aptitude as an engineer, but surely some of my countrymen and women are trainable? I'm not saying we shouldn't have well-educated people from other countries coming here legally to work, but our people need to get good jobs too.

Ah, now you're getting to the crux of the problem. American citizens are in no way deprived of educational opportunities – public and private universities, community colleges and vocational schools can be found in every state and major city in this country, many with branches in smaller towns. Financial aid and deferred loans are available for just about everyone, and reeducation programs and online courses for working adults abound. If you don't have the skills, education or motivation to make yourself employable in this country, quite frankly it's no one's fault but your own and you have no cause to gripe about other people who have worked hard to gain marketable skills and training or who, lacking those opportunities in their home countries, are simply struggling to eke out a meager existence for themselves and their families in whatever ways they can.

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Also, not all of our young people are college or university material; surely there are still trades that can be taught at trade schools.

There are plenty of schools offering training – check with your local community college and you'll be amazed at all the things you can learn. All it takes in to enroll – who is stopping anyone from doing that?

I think that lack of education is really to blame.
Education about ourselves about life and about the world. People presume many things out of emotion and that is dangerous. When we can't see past our own selfish needs, wants and goals; we tend to think that someone or something that is "connected" to the what we see as a problem is actually the main problem. We lock down and go for the throat(as they say).

But if we all worked together to fix the problem, I'm talking about lower than grassroots here; instead of hoping that government will surely fix things, then we are all lost.

Democracy works when we all work at it, and I would like to add to that *humanely and with keen understanding for each other's needs*
I think we should aspire to a more perfect world, a world democracy if you will, not just a national one.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt-choo:
Arresting illegals won't effect any change unless you also arrest the individuals who are hiring them.

I think to get to the crux of the problem we would have to arrest you and me and all others that demand the low prices for products that illegal workers in this country or slave/child labor in third world countries make possible.

Are we willing to pay higher prices for veggies, clothing and cheap plastic goods so we can keep jobs in the US and guarantee that our children can pick melons in Arizona and gut chickens for Tyson in Alabama?

Wayne

adirondackgardener - my sentiments exactly!!

I just spent over an hour pulling, washing, chopping, an armload of green onions. They would have cost me less than a dollar a bunch at the grocery store.

If I harvest them, or my daughter or grand-daughter harvests them, those green onions are going to cost over 5 dollars a bunch - and that is before they ever get to the grocery store.