Maxine Waters trying to suggest nationalizing the oil industry. OK, a show of hands - who thinks the government can efficiently and effectively operate the oil industry?

Dirt

Not to surprising knowing her politics. The only thing that can help lower gas prices is conserving and using less. The government can't really do anything to help and claiming they can is bogus at the least.

quote:

The government can't really do anything to help

They can remove restrictions on drilling, including off coastal California, Florida, and New England.

They can enforce more vigorously anti-trust regulations to reduce industry consolidation, and be willing to permit new refineries. (Refining capacity restrictions share blame between industry consolidation for "efficiency" and government regulations/NIMBYism).

They can reform liability laws to stop the fear of frivolous and/or catastrophic lawsuits that have crippled the nuclear industry. Nuclear with plug-in hybrids would go a long way in the long term towards changing the dynamic of how we use energy.

They can regulate the institutional investors currently mucking up the commodities market. These new institutions aren't providing the market making function that tradtional speculators did, but instead are hoarding. It's a Holland Tulips bubble all over again. Much of this money was in the mortgage market and had messed that up already. Good detailed explanation here: http://www.grainland.coop/images/E0213801/052008Masters...miny_to_Congress.pdf

They can make sure permits get issued for infrastructure like natural gas pipelines and LNG terminals, and they can use the powers of eminent domain to help those project get built.

They can cut government spending to match taxes, to reduce the printing of money and the inflationary effect it's having by weakening the dollar.

They're not going to achieve lower energy costs with price controls, rationing, or increased taxes.

But good policies and proper regulation without endless litigation can do a lot to impact the prices.

I don't think ruining the beautiful coastlines or literally nuking the planet will help much.

It's a drastic but perhaps necessary step.

The oil companies take billions of dollars in corporate welfare from tax payers every year and repay us by price gouging in various forms, lately by the simple act of metaphorically holding a gun to our heads and stealing our money without even the slimmest pretext of justification.

Energy, like food and water, is an integral part of American life and the oil companies, their multi-millionaire executives and wealthy oil speculators have proven they can not be trusted to operate such a vital supply chain.

It's time those in Congress and the Administration who have been sleeping with the oil company execs step aside and let Congress conduct a real investigation into the oil industry's rape of the American people. Indict and try them. Jail the execs when found guilty and sieze the industry assets.

Siezing the assets of criminals is not such an outlandish idea to my way of thinking. We do it to other scum, such as drug dealers.

Wayne

Wayne,
I take that as a yes for Maxine. Sounds like you've already passed judgment. I'd like to know how many in Congress are in bed with oil lobbyists. I'm sure they're all Republicans (no such thing as a dishonest Democrat) - send them to jail with that dirtbag from CA.

Dirt

quote:

I don't think ruining the beautiful coastlines or literally nuking the planet will help much.

Too late for that. I stood on the beach on Dauphin Island last weekend and counted about 25 rigs on the horizon. And we're STILL paying out the ass, and obviously will continue to do so, for gas.

quote:

Wayne,
I take that as a yes for Maxine. Sounds like you've already passed judgment.

Well, in my mind, yes I did. Much like a district attorney passes some degree of judgement when he or she seeks a grand jury indictment. The DA has some degree of confidence in his or her judgement and some idea of the type of punishment that should be meted out.

That's why I proposed that proper due process be carried out as is in keeping with American justice.

Why do you think all Republicans are in bed with oil lobbyists? I'm sure I didn't suggest that.

Wayne

I'm really not keen an paying through the nose for gas BUT! Should CEOs be limited to how much money they can make in salary? OK, what's the limit? How much profit can a company be allowed to make - 10% too much? And the answer is? Should all those investing in oil companies be booted to the curb and not be allowed to invest? Say goodbye NEA! Well maybe not the NEA! Should the Congress claim no responsibility? What exactly have previous administrations done to further our energy independence? I think trying to take pictures of George Bush palling around with oil execs is a bit simplistic. I also think trying to pin all the blame on the oil companies is a bit narrow-minded. I'd ask John Edwards but his busy reviewing plans for additions to his mansion - another evil, rich guy! Oops, sorry. Forgot he likes to spend my money - good, rich guy!

Dirt

quote:

Originally posted by adirondackgardener:
[QUOTE]
Why do you think all Republicans are in bed with oil lobbyists? I'm sure I didn't suggest that.

Wayne

I don't. I think some Dems are and are/would be held to a different standard. You didn't, that sarcastic streak of mine sneaking out.

Dirt

quote:

Originally posted by organicbaby:
I stood on the beach on Dauphin Island last weekend and counted about 25 rigs on the horizon.

Great fishing around those rigs. Dolphin, wahoo and cobia - don't get no better! But alas, gas to the fishing grounds is prohibitive.

Dirt

BTW - Gaviscon saved me the other night, thanks!

I'm sure that a nationalized oil industry could lower the price to the point where we could use it up all the faster, which really doesn't gain us anything. One thing about high prices is that it forces us to be a bit more thoughtful about how we use the stuff.

At four dollars a gallon, People are starting to pay attention, but it will have to hit 8 before enough people become serious about conservation that we substantially alter our energy use.

I would be quite content with a lightweght electic car with bicycle type wheels and hub mounted brushless electric motor/brakes. Such a car could carry four adults at 50 mph for 250 miles between charges, charge in two hours from a line cord or 12 under a small solar array, and would be do-able with battery and materials technology available today.

But such a vehicle would only weigh about 500 lbs unloaded, be constructed on a lightweight frame and shelled with a thin layer of glass and carbon fiber composite and foam. Safe enough if it collided with it's own twin, or a brick wall, but a death trap in an altercation with a Hummer or an Excursion.

Because some people insist on the freedom to drive 80 MPH in a giant SUV, the rest of us are denied the freedom of having a small, slower, but highly efficient electric car.

The present trajectory of hybrid and electric technology is to replace the gasoline car entirely without making any compromise in size, speed, luxury/comfort, performance, or safety.

However, if we were willing to sacrifice a bit of speed, acceleration, size, and luxury, we could substantially decrease energy consumption while maintaining reliability, convenience and safety.

We probably will not head in that direction. Instead we will build electron sucking leviathans recharged by nuclear plants in order to maintain our profligate rate of energy use. We will further contaminate our ground, our air and our water, only this time it will be with radioactive wastes that maintain their toxicity for millenia rather than the mere decadal life of our old poisons.

Meanwhile the rest of the world will reap the scientific, financial, and environmental benefits of developing resource efficient and energy sparing technologies.

But we will have our stories. We will tell our wide-eyed, or perhaps radioactively walleyed, grandchildren about the old days when we drove our Tahoe around the corner to the mailbox, when we burned billions of cubic feet of natural gas in blazing outdoor fireplaces for summer evening "ambience". We will tell mythical stories about great glaciers, and about the days when we could breathe natural air without the aide of oxygen concentrators.

quote:

Originally posted by Dirt Pit:
Maxine Waters trying to suggest nationalizing the oil industry. OK, a show of hands - who thinks the government can efficiently and effectively operate the oil industry?

Dirt

Okay, I must be having a senior moment. I got Maxine Waters mixed up with Alice Waters and wondered what does a chef and restauranteur know about the oil industry?

That, and I need to belly up to the bar and consume mass quantities of antacids along with you, Dirt!

--J--

quote:

Originally posted by badplantmommy:
.........what does a chef and restauranteur know about the oil industry?

That, and I need to belly up to the bar and consume mass quantities of antacids along with you, Dirt!

--J--

At least as much as Maxine Waters.

My sympathies.

Dirt

quote:

Originally posted by Dirt Pit:
Maxine Waters trying to suggest nationalizing the oil industry. OK, a show of hands - who thinks the government can efficiently and effectively operate the oil industry?

Dirt

I think our countries future will be that of...'America...a Democratic, Communist Nation Under God.'

Life as we know it in America is coming to an end in the not so distant future.

And maybe I am using the wrong word with communism?

Maybe it should be Nationalism? Socialism? I don't know since I have little interest in politics.

As far for what I means, it could be compared somewhat to Plato's Republic. Where the republic came first and people came second.

But with the US, the injection of Democratic values as well as a spiritual foundation that supports our country from its earliest beginnings would 'hopefully' separate us from the atheist based communists that have been run as dictatorships.

Am I as Christian zealot?

No, I am an agnostic freethinker.

As for why I have come up with such a bold statement as 'America...a Democratic, Communist Nation Under God?'

See these DVD's

1940's House PBS (albeit our enemy is not Germany...it is energy) And witness something along the lines of a 'Democratic, Communist Nation Under God.'

http://www.amazon.com/1940s-House-Marguerite-Patten/dp/B0000AYL47

A Crude Awakening
http://www.oilcrashmovie.com/

End of Suburbia
http://www.endofsuburbia.com/

Oil Apocalypse
http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=108290


See these books:

http://www.amazon.com/Out-Gas-End-Age-Oil/dp/0393058573

http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/0691116253

http://www.lastoilshock.com/


...put it all together and you have 'America...a Democratic, Communist Nation Under God.' as the 'best fit ' equation.

And for dessert...add 'politics as usual'

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F

And we can see nothing substantive will or can be done in the US to fix our woes.

BTW, do I like communism?

No, not really, I like things EXACTLY as they are. I like being an energy whore and sucking down the crude just as you do. I like running my dirt bikes, jet skis, RV and driving my car.

But what I like doesn't matter...neither does what you like matter.

What does matter is 'what our country likes' or more appropriately 'needs' in order to survive.

If we look at the root of communism it is that of the commune-ist. The hippy communes and the Israeli Kibbutz's and the modern day survival devotees that plan to buy some land and develop a 'survival community' to live of the land all share in the same commune-ist dream.

But the point is not to persuade you to be a communist, but to foster a realization that for the US to survive, we must put 'what matters to our country' on the front burner...and as our country survives...so do we survive.

Alan Watts used to say, it doesn't matter what you think, it doesn't matter what you like, it doesn't matter what you hope for...all that really matters is what IS.

Sure we keep our treasured paper money, our guns, and what have you.

Guns are a populations last line of defense.

Look at Afghanistan...they beat Russia and the US is still having trouble with 'the people' there....all because of an armed population.

BTW, whenever I think of the Afghanis I think back to the poem.

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains.
And go to your Gawd like a soldier" ~ Kipling

So NEVER, NEVER give up your guns...for when the guns go, so does your freedom. Guns are the foundation of freedom.

Money??

Well, money will not be worth much anyway. Money is nothing more than stored energy. But since the crude dried up, the 'real energy' behind the money has vanished...and so did private industry.

So, what is money good for nowadays...to wipe your ass?

Not really, the government supplied toilet paper works better than that.

What about the coal mines? All government owned. If you want to eat you work in the mines or where the gov places you...it is that simple.

This is how our country can claim to be a 'communist democracy' We are not a slave driven dictatorship, You still have 'some freedoms.' You can work or not work as you please. But, don't expect a gov handout if you do not want to contribute to the countries survival needs....and as our country survives so do we survive.

Religion? Well, the atheists can still be atheists and the Christians, Muslims and Jews can still worship as they like.

But the big difference in our government is; instead of the ego based decisions that politicians and the titans of business get sucked into, the politicians will put the long term US viability as top priority over personal profit.

How do we accomplish this? I don't know, since politicians are normally ego based, lying, power hungry individuals. But this is an area that has to be perfected the best we can with accepting we deal with imperfect humans.

If we look at the various powers the government has though executive orders, we are pretty much there (a Democratic, Communist Nation Under God.) without much effort.

Here are just a few of them...

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995 allows the government to seize and control the communication media.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997 allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001 allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.

http://sonic.net/sentinel/gvcon5.html

What happened to all our individual freedoms with these executive orders?

It was lost long ago in the deluded American dream that believes the individual American can survive on their own. Without a strong government you guys would be speaking Chinese or Russian. What happened to the personal property of Iraq when the US took it down? Ditto for your homes and McMansions if another country decided 'to move' here.

You think it is political biz as usual in the US in the upcoming election?

It makes little difference.

The world is in a death spiral and politicians as well as industry are pretending this problem does not exist. No Politician can fix our woes. the best we can do is to make the most of our dilemma.

We can only blame ourselves, for it is just how we have built our world over the years....too many people, living outside of natures intended balance and not an infinite supply of energy to fuel all our demands.

So Dem or Rep...any politician in charge had better come to terms with how things really are and not live in dream land...we are running out of time as our fossil fuel supplies dwindle.

You know every country will not run out of crude all at once.

Without energy our country is open for takeover ... no jets...no tanks...no transport on the ground or in the air. Luckily we will still have nuclear powered submarines and aircraft carriers as long as the uranium holds out. But the jets on the flattop all use jet fuel. All the supplies for those subs and carriers petroleum dependent.

Other countries such as Russia that have a good supply of nationally based crude may not be so kind to keep on selling it to us, We will need a 'local and continual' source somewhat within our borders for national security. You see, jet fuel as well as gasoline deteriorates and cannot be stored indefinitely. So we must always be producing some of it to replace the stale stuff to supply the military.

So long before the crude dries up the government must 'secure a supply' of crude for it own needs. This is what is driving the North American Union. This is why illegal aliens are pretty much free to do what they wish in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Union

NAFTA came about as a way for the US to get its hands on the energy output of Canada and Mexico. And part of that agreement (unwritten) was to relax the law somewhat on the illegals coming from Mexico.

In short...if you want our crude you take some of our illegals

As our world changes and our drug supply dries up, things will only get worse. And the bigger the city - the bigger the hellhole it will become. And this time RIGHT NOW is the defining moment as to whether most of our population will die off or not in the crisis that awaits us in the not so distant future.

Besides crude oil, have you ever thought about how much of our life is dependent on natural gas for cooking, heating and hot water?

How many of our homes are set up for efficient heating with natural methods such as wood, pellet, passive solar?

My house is not.

I never gave this subject any thought until I learned about peak natural gas. And by then it was too late.

My house is as far as it can be from the 'ideal house' that can be heated my natural methods. And to make maters worse, I live in the NE US, where it gets plenty cold.

Do you know that much of your life is dependent on natural gas *outside* its use as an energy source?

Natural gas is a raw material in many of our products we depend on.

Almost all the helium we produce comes from natural gas.

Propane, synthetic fertilizers, ammonia?

They are totally dependent on natural gas.

Our population boom was fueled by synthetic fertilizers made from natural; gas. Once the gas dries up so does the fertilizer and a shortage of fertilizer equals a shortage of food.

Natural; gas is also used as an energy source to produce steel, glass, paper, clothing, brick, electricity

We will run out of natural gas, just as we deplete our crude supplies in the near future.

http://www.amazon.com/High-Noon-Natural-Gas-Energy/dp/1931498539

http://www.enotes.com/how-products-encyclopedia/natural-gas

http://www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/icm/2003/4-14-2003/natgasn.html

http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/sources/non-ren...html#WHATITISUSEDFOR

Many people just think of crude oil for gasoline production.

From this list we can see that we are still massively depend on crude for our non sustainable lifestyle. There is no replacement for crude...crude is in the details of our life.

So even if we all stop driving we will just be postponing the inevitable that our artificial way of living is going to change in the not so distant future.

A partial list of products made from Petroleum (144 of over 6000 items) One 42-gallon barrel of oil creates 19.4 gallons of gasoline. The rest (over half) is used to make things like:

Solvents Diesel Motor Oil Bearing Grease
Ink Floor Wax Ballpoint Pens Football Cleats
Upholstery Sweaters Boats Insecticides
Bicycle Tires Sports Car Bodies Nail Polish Fishing lures
Dresses Tires Golf Bags Perfumes
Cassettes Dishwasher Tool Boxes Shoe Polish
Motorcycle Helmet Caulking Petroleum Jelly Transparent Tape
CD Player Faucet Washers Antiseptics Clothesline
Curtains Food Preservatives Basketballs Soap
Vitamin Capsules Antihistamines Purses Shoes
Dashboards Cortisone Deodorant Footballs
Putty Dyes Panty Hose Refrigerant
Percolators Life Jackets Rubbing Alcohol Linings
Skis TV Cabinets Shag Rugs Electrician's Tape
Tool Racks Car Battery Cases Epoxy Paint
Mops Slacks Insect Repellent Oil Filters
Umbrellas Yarn Fertilizers Hair Coloring
Roofing Toilet Seats Fishing Rods Lipstick
Denture Adhesive Linoleum Ice Cube Trays Synthetic Rubber
Speakers Plastic Wood Electric Blankets Glycerin
Tennis Rackets Rubber Cement Fishing Boots Dice
Nylon Rope Candles Trash Bags House Paint
Water Pipes Hand Lotion Roller Skates Surf Boards
Shampoo Wheels Paint Rollers Shower Curtains
Guitar Strings Luggage Aspirin Safety Glasses
Antifreeze Football Helmets Awnings Eyeglasses
Clothes Toothbrushes Ice Chests Footballs
Combs CD's Paint Brushes Detergents
Vaporizers Balloons Sun Glasses Tents
Heart Valves Crayons Parachutes Telephones
Enamel Pillows Dishes Cameras
Anesthetics Artificial Turf Artificial limbs Bandages
Dentures Model Cars Folding Doors Hair Curlers
Cold cream Movie film Soft Contact lenses Drinking Cups
Fan Belts Car Enamel Shaving Cream Ammonia
Refrigerators Golf Balls Toothpaste Gasoline

Americans consume petroleum products at a rate of three-and-a-half gallons of oil and more than 250 cubic feet of natural gas per day each!

http://www.beloit.edu/~SEPM/Geology_and_the_enviro/Petroleum_need.html

Realize this, throughout history many great nations that once were are not around any longer.

Hopefully the US will understand this and start accepting the truth that something has to give and it can't be business as usual.

Always remember, none of us will be ultimate survivors, we all have to die one day. But the successful survivor extends his or her life beyond an earlier death...a death that was caused by ignorance of how to make that life last longer.

You still have some valuable time left to prepare for what awaits you down the road.

We are in the 'Indian Summer' of a carbon based world. Don't wait until the winter sets in to start work on your preparedness efforts.


Also see:

Beyond Civilization: humanity's next great adventure
by Quinn, Daniel

Beyond Oil: the view from Hubbert's Peak
by Deffeyes, Kenneth S.
http://www.princeton.edu/hubbert/

Bowling Alone: the collapse and revival of American community
by Putnam, R