Voting records are very often misleading, Mary Ellen and it gets worse every year. Representatives are too often put into a position of having to vote against something they support whole-heartedly because of amendments attached to the bill by other representatives, too often amendments that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the original bill.

An extreme hypothetical example: I'm a senator who has no choice but to vote against a bill that I whole-heartedly supported, one that creates a program of organic gardening education in our schools because a fellow senator has attached an amendment that permits any child who choses to to carry a firearm to class. During the next election cycle I can almost hear that deep, ominous radio announcer voice: "In a world... a world sinking into the ooze of chemical poisons, Senator Wayne opposes teaching our children how to garden organically. Senator Wayne puts the profits of Monsanto's trade in toxic chemicals before the health of our nation's children. Senator Wayne would have multi-national chemical giants profit while your children die..."

You've heard that voice before and you've heard similar messages. Obviously, in the hypothetical example, to pass the organic education in schools bill that he supports would require Senator Wayne to to allow our children to continue, unhindered, to blow other children away with guns, something no sane individual would ever do. Such is the nature of that sub-culture of low-life politics, to outright lie with half-truths and mis-representations.

Wayne

Maybe some day I'll tell the story of my interest in the political issues behind the construction of the Trans-Alaska Pipeline, dating back to my newly-wed days in the early 1970s when the possibility of constructing it was a huge political issue. Maybe I'll tell how "discussing the Alaska Pipeline" became a euphemism for doing something so very, completely different, much less contentious and a whole lot more fun.

Or, maybe I just did. Oops! Glad the ex doesn't frequent these forums. (I hope.)

Wayne

Well what dya know? Once again Wayne and I agree on a lot of individual pieces of the topic! Where we part company is it is my belief the entire political system is corrupted with, I hope, a few exceptions - but I'd be hard-pressed to know who they are.

Dirt

quote:

Representatives are too often put into a position of having to vote against something they support whole-heartedly because of amendments attached to the bill by other representatives, too often amendments that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the original bill.

Kind of like funding the war in Iraq. And raising the minimum wage in the same bill...

Or the farm bill and food stamps.

My poor mind has problems grasping just how corrupt the world is. I have been finding some information on the net about how my congressmen (the site has all the congressmen) vote on things. IMO.. Kentucky is an Old Boys School kind of state. That has corruptions written all over it, especially if you are female!

quote:

That has corruptions written all over it, especially if you are female!

Figure of the elected state offices in Connecticut...

1/3rd are corrupt.
1/3rd are incompetent.
1/3rd just roll their eyes.

Those go in cycles historically. When the corruption gets too much a wave of reform comes in. May take us another 10 years or better to be at that point again in Connecticut, but it'll come around again.

quote:

1/3rd are corrupt.
1/3rd are incompetent.
1/3rd just roll their eyes.

I just spent the weekend at a state political convention in the State of Maine, Matt. There were a lot of state and local political people there and from what I know of them, they seem, for the most part, to be honorable, dedicated and decent people.

Perhaps you have a far greater knowledge of the elected officials in your state. Since you've posted the "statistics," perhaps you would care to elaborate on the crimes that 1/3 of your state's politicians are guilty of?

Let's start off easy. You have two US Senators, Chris Dodd and Joseph Lieberman. Are either of these two corrupt, and if so, what are the crimes that they engaged in?

You have 5 representitives in the U.S. House of Representatives, John B. Larson, Joe Courtney, Rosa L. DeLauro, Christopher Shays and Christopher Murphy. Please let us know which, if any, of these people are corrupt and in what illegal activities they engage?

The Connecticut Connecticut House of Representatives has 151 representatives, of which your "statistics" suggest 50 of them are engaging in illegal activities. Your State Senate has 36 members, so I would assume 12 of them are criminals. Elaborate, please. And could you be specific of the the crimes they are being charged with or the activities that you have specific knowledge of?

And, of course, there are thousands of local elected officials, whose cases would overload the judicial system of your state once they are all brought to justice, especially since one-third of your judges presumably would be on trial.

It would be doing your state a public service to bring these "corrupt" officials into the public eye.

Of course I realize that the idea that all, most, half, etc of public officials are corrupt is just a bit of hyperbole. A lot of people believe this stuff, though, and I believe it goes a long way towards fostering a hatred of our system of government.

But maybe I'm wrong and you do have the goods on them.

Wayne

quote:

Originally posted by ctdahle:
Allen, It's great that you have mastered the Freshman Comp term paper format, but do you have to post the same thing in response to every thread?

When someone ask a question I give my answer.

If they ask what 2 + 2 is, I tell them 4.

I don't change the answer to fit others demands.

The truth is that which does not change.

quote:

Originally posted by adirondackgardener:
Allenwrench, if you had "come up with such a bold statement as 'America...a Democratic, Communist Nation Under God" then you must be V from other forums, posting the same message that you insist on repeatedly posting here.

Ever wonder why V doesn't last long on most forums?

Wayne

(OK Dirt, your turn. He hijacked your thread, after all.)

Yes, I was V, but am semi-retired. I do use some of my old posts. But mainly ask questions now and do not give answers much.

Either something is true or not true or we don't know.

No use in banning people that have views?

We would be an atheist communist country then.

quote:

Originally posted by GardenDmpls:
What everyone seems to miss is that there is more competition for oil from up and coming nations with a big thirst for oil, such as China. Supply and demand. More supply than demand keeps prices low. Less supply than demand and prices soar.

In blaming oil companies, people look at total amount they take in, and not what goes out. Their profit margines are lower than a lot of other industries and the profits not put back into exploration and development do go to investors, many of which are union pension funds and retirement plans.

Another thought-if off limits areas are to open to oil pumping, what guarantee do we have that we would get the oil and not another country like China, with the ability to bid higher?

Yes, as we cut back (if any) with crude use the rest fo the world uses more.

It goes far beyond the American dream...for the American dream is a worldwide dream.

Just look at Dubai to see the American dream imported to the middle east.

It is worldwide arrogance.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt from CT:

quote:

but it will have to hit 8 before enough people become serious about conservation that we substantially alter our energy use.

Nope.

We'll develop alternatives. Sustained $8 gasoline will not be tolerated within the next forty years. If it can't be done with crude oil, it'll be done by coal liquifecation, or nuclear plants and hydrogen, or any number of alternative sources to power cars. The economic impact to the suburban development and suburban office parks would be too great; of people no longer traveling to visit family; of vacation communities left desolate. Sustained $4 gas won't be tolerated...if the markets become convinced this isn't a tulip bulb bubble we're in, those alternatives will be built and the political pressure to allow such alternatives will become unbearable.

quote:

Safe enough if it collided with it's own twin, or a brick wall, but a death trap in an altercation with a Hummer or an Excursion.

No, it would be a death trap in a collision with a brick wall, too. Or it's own twin. I've dealt with enough dead motorcyclists over the years, helmeted or not.

The reduction in deaths -- I'm not talking national statistics my my own personal involvement -- since about 1993 when car safety really started to become common place and the engineers had learned their lessons from the last 15 years of work is simply astounding.

Prior to that we would see a couple fatal auto accidents each year even in my small town; now it may be one every couple of years and usually that's in pretty spectacular circumstances. Some of the deaths in the older 1970s/early 1980s cars made you scratch your head that it was fatal since the collision didn't seem that bad; now some of the absolutely devestated cars people are alive in are mind boggling.

In many ways it's made life more complicated for the fire departments -- extrication takes much longer because the way the cars fold up to absorb the energy, and you have to be cognizant of the multiple safety systems that have explosives like air bags and seatbelt pretensioners that may not have fired. You're simply not going to have those safety features built into a motorized rickshaw.

I don't care if you want to drive a lightweight vehicle, I don't care if you drive a motorcycle without a helmet. People have freedom to choose, but don't for a moment think lightweight vehicles are dangerous only because of SUVs. They're more dangerous because they simply don't have the materials in them that make modern cars as safe as they are.

quote:

Energy, like food and water, is an integral part of American life

How far do you take it comparing corporations with criminal drug gangs?

In the war against those drug gangs, we don't allow anyone to grow Marijuana. Ponder what government control of food and water would mean for your gardening practices.

In the long term, oil prices can only go one way in the general trend and that is UP. There is no limit to how high gas can go.

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/

It may have blips here and there, but the writing is on the wall as to our future with oil and the rest of the fossil fuels we gobble up.

You have talked about personal transport.

We seem to forget that crude is in our blood in all forms of our world.

I have to laugh at he corn people sometimes. We will be making tires and asphalt out of corn?

Even if we did find out how to burn water for energy, petrochemicals make up a large portion of crude's importance to mankind. Roughly 9% of every barrel of crude goes to petrochemical use. If we stopped burning crude this instant, we would still suck the wells dry, albeit not as quickly, just from petrochemical use.

Some work has been done with making plastics from corn, but it can't touch the variety of plastic and rubber products that crude produces.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/plastic.html

So even if we all stop driving we will just be postponing the inevitable that our artificial way of living is going to change in the not so distant future.

A partial list of products made from crude:

Solvents Diesel Motor Oil Bearing Grease
Ink Floor Wax Ballpoint Pens Football Cleats
Upholstery Sweaters Boats Insecticides
Bicycle Tires Sports Car Bodies Nail Polish Fishing lures
Dresses Tires Golf Bags Perfumes
Cassettes Dishwasher Tool Boxes Shoe Polish
Motorcycle Helmet Caulking Petroleum Jelly Transparent Tape
CD Player Faucet Washers Antiseptics Clothesline
Curtains Food Preservatives Basketballs Soap
Vitamin Capsules Antihistamines Purses Shoes
Dashboards Cortisone Deodorant Footballs
Putty Dyes Panty Hose Refrigerant
Percolators Life Jackets Rubbing Alcohol Linings
Skis TV Cabinets Shag Rugs Electrician's Tape
Tool Racks Car Battery Cases Epoxy Paint
Mops Slacks Insect Repellent Oil Filters
Umbrellas Yarn Fertilizers Hair Coloring
Roofing Toilet Seats Fishing Rods Lipstick
Denture Adhesive Linoleum Ice Cube Trays Synthetic Rubber
Speakers Plastic Wood Electric Blankets Glycerin
Tennis Rackets Rubber Cement Fishing Boots Dice
Nylon Rope Candles Trash Bags House Paint
Water Pipes Hand Lotion Roller Skates Surf Boards
Shampoo Wheels Paint Rollers Shower Curtains
Guitar Strings Luggage Aspirin Safety Glasses
Antifreeze Football Helmets Awnings Eyeglasses
Clothes Toothbrushes Ice Chests Footballs
Combs CD's Paint Brushes Detergents
Vaporizers Balloons Sun Glasses Tents
Heart Valves Crayons Parachutes Telephones
Enamel Pillows Dishes Cameras
Anesthetics Artificial Turf Artificial limbs Bandages
Dentures Model Cars Folding Doors Hair Curlers
Cold cream Movie film Soft Contact lenses Drinking Cups
Fan Belts Car Enamel Shaving Cream Ammonia
Refrigerators Golf Balls Toothpaste Gasoline

From this list we can see that we are still massively depend on crude for our non sustainable lifestyle.
There is no replacement for crude...crude is in the details of our life.

We got other problems right in line with peak oil. NG and crude are right in bed with each other.

Have you ever thought about how much of our life is dependent on natural gas for cooking, heating and hot water?

How many of our homes are set up for efficient heating with natural methods such as wood, pellet, passive solar?

My house is not.

I never gave this subject any thought until I learned about peak natural gas. And by then it was too late.

My house is as far as it can be from the 'ideal house' that can be heated my natural methods. And to make maters worse, I live in the NE US, where it gets plenty cold.

Do you know that much of your life is dependent on natural gas outside its use as an energy source?

We will run out of natural gas, just as we deplete our crude supplies in the near future.

http://www.amazon.com/High-Noon-Natural-Gas-Energy/dp/1931498539

quote:

Originally posted by allenwrench:
No use in banning people that have views?

We would be an atheist communist country then.

Banning spammers for repeatedly posting their ridiculously long diatribes on forums has nothing to do with either Atheism or Communism.

Atheism is healthy and Communism is nearly irrelevant in my book and those who still dwell on them as somehow threatening when faced with any concept they disagree with can't help but come across as being anachronistically ridiculous.

Wayne

quote:

Originally posted by allenwrench:
The truth is that which does not change.

You want long posts? I could do rings around you on that one.

quote:

Originally posted by adirondackgardener:

quote:

Originally posted by allenwrench:
No use in banning people that have views?

We would be an atheist communist country then.

Banning spammers for repeatedly posting their ridiculously long diatribes on forums has nothing to do with either Atheism or Communism.

Atheism is healthy and Communism is nearly irrelevant in my book and those who still dwell on them as somehow threatening when faced with any concept they disagree with can't help but come across as being anachronistically ridiculous.

Wayne

What is ridiculous is you saying Atheism is healthy