As you might know, I am one of those crazy animal people. I am a pecto-vegan (I eat seafood) and a member of the Humane Society and tell everyone I can corner how bad factory farms are and if I see someone in a fur coat- watchout! But even I think Peta's criticism of Puxatawny Phil is ridiculous. He is a pet and most likely wouldn't do well on his own being he has been a pet all his life. He works one day a year and lives like a king the rest of the year. What are they thinking? They are only setting themselves up for more animosity. I always defend them and would fight with every owner of a People Eating Tasty Animals bumper sticker, at my own risk. But those stupid Peta people need to 'pick their battles' and they would have more support.

You and I wouldn't agree on many things--I came equipped with teeth for eating meat and veggies, so I do--but for darn sure we are agreed on factory farms...and on PETA going more than a bit overboard. Each time they do, they hurt their own cause.

(For the record--and I say this not to argue or put down your opinion but simply to share my own--I'm OK with fur if it isn't harvested solely for it's own sake--if rabbits are raised for food, then it would be a waste to NOT use the fur, same from leather from cowhide, but don't offer me a silver fox fur. Nor a bearskin unless the bear it came from was threatening livestock AND people AND the bear meat is in your freezer or on the table.)

I think there's a place for extreme organizations in any cause. They raise questions and provoke thinking, and make it possible for more mainstream groups to get things done.

Agreed on most points made so far (I'm also a crazy animal person & vegetarian).

I agree that PETA does some great work - and I really wish they'd tone it down a bit in certain areas so that people wouldn't consider them SOOOO over the top. They'd have a lot more support if weren't QUITE so fanatical.

As for CountryKitty's mention of fur... that's a good point. However... the rabbits that are used for meat, and the cows that are used for meat, are NOT usually where fur and leather products come from. I don't know... fur animals might get ground up for dog food or something... but so far as I know, the food industry does not use the same animals as the fur industry. I'm with Minnie on this... I despise fur and leather in every form.

As for the groundhog... he looks like a pretty happy critter. I'm sure PETA would freak out if they saw my Hopalong kitty. He's disabled, and used to attend adoption events and parades with me (sitting in my lap, waving out the window of the car, on his harness) to benefit a cat shelter. He's alumni there and gathered quite the following in doing these events! Anyway... yes... MOST cats would not be happy doing this - most would be terrified. HE, however, absolutely LOVED it. I could take him to major expos with THOUSANDS of people, and he'd walk right up to any one of them and flop over for belly rubs. Some animals, like some people, just enjoy weird things.

In the case of the groundhog - come on. ONE day of crowds isn't gonna hurt the poor thing. If I were PETA, I'd focus more on the live animal mascots used by sports teams. But even that I think is pretty trivial. Those animals are VERY well taken care of.

IMO PETA does such bad work its almost enough to make want a Jaguar coat...

FWIW that PETA got it right about factory farming falls into the broken clock paradigm (even a broken one is right twice a day).

Punxatawny Phil is just one of a legion of their clear miss'.

Wow a variety of responses.

I get a lot of mail from PETA and other animal groups. They all follow a shock and awe sort of fundraising technique. PETA sends a big envelope a few times a year that looks like a survey or something but inside it has photos of abducted and caged cats and dogs in Asia that they say are stolen/rounded up for fur and that some are skinned alive. It bothers me so much I have stopped opening those big envelopes now. I donate monthly to the Humane Society which seems like it gets a lot more work done more sanely.

BTW My taunt to people with People Eating Tasty Animals bumper stickers is 'Yeah I like meat a lot too. Who doesn't? In fact your yellow lab looks mighty scrumptious.'

Leather comes from beef cows. mk

Rex rabbits have beautiful fur. I have thought about raising rabbits for meat, but then what would I do with the fur? While I do eat meat and wear leather shoes, I don't think I could wear fur now, because I don't think I could handle all the dirty looks I'd get.

I have given the meat vs. vegetarian issue a lot of thought. I love veggies, but I still eat meat now and then, although I lean more towards chicken and seafood. But I can happily eat vegetarian and vegan meals. I'm sensitive enough to the lifestyles of my friends; I won't sit and eat a steak in front of friends who don't eat anything that has a face.

Even though I didn't grow up on a farm (just a big garden), I learned one of the main rules about livestock: don't name the animals you are going to eat.

--J--

Watch the film Earthlings to understand where most leather and fur comes from. And what factory farming of animals is.

Earthlings

PETA and Greenpeace - an embarrassment to regular folks that want to do the right thing.

This is NOT directed toward anyone in particular. And might only be partly related to our conversation here... but here goes...

Unfortunately... I think a lot of PEOPLE (not just organizations) go all super-fanatical about stuff TOO... giving other people in that same "category" a bad name. Take vegetarians and vegans for example. I got SOOOOOOO much flak about it when I first made the switch. And I STILL don't frequent any vegetarian/vegan forums because there are SOOOO many closed-minded people out there.

I try to look at everything with an open mind. Just because "we" or "they" think something is right - doesn't mean it is. My big thing that made me go veg was that I couldn't come up with a legitimate answer of WHY it's ok for me to eat a cow, but not a horse - or a pig but not a dog (studies have shown that pigs are more intelligent than dogs). Or a chicken but not a parrot. I mean... WHY???? Truth is... there IS no reason, other than that certain societies and cultures SAY one thing is ok and another is not.

I hate those meat-eaters who ask stupid stuff like "can you eat animal crackers?" - but I also hate those vegetarians who will fly off the handle if someone else eats meat. It's a personal choice - just like religion - and shouldn't be forced on anyone. My daughter eats meat. I won't buy it or cook it for her... but she eats it elsewhere and I don't care. If I told her she couldn't - she'd do it anyway (at school, friends, etc where I can't control it) and it would just make her despise my lifestyle.

I'm not going to say that humans weren't made to eat meat. I'm also not going to say we WERE. Some will argue we have "canine" teeth - but really... we don't. Canine teeth are like, well, canines. Made almost exclusively for tearing flesh - they're MUCH longer than ours. However... based solely on our teeth - I would say we were made to eat mostly veggies, with some meat. However... I think in order to argue we were meant to eat large animals (cows, deer, whatever) - we'd have to be capable of capturing and killing these creatures with our bare hands or simple tools. We didn't always have rifles that could take out an elk at 300yards.

I do think that there would be a LOT (lot, lot L.O.T.) more vegetarians in this world if we didn't have the convenience of packaged meat. If everyone had to raise, or even just slaughter their own meat... a LOT of people couldn't do it.

Our culture is SOOOOOOOO egotistical. We believe that what WE think is "normal" or acceptable is the ONLY possible correct way of doing things. That sickens me. I really just wish that more people would use their own brain to really think things through, rather than just doing something or believing in something "because that's the way it is". The word "because" should never be your answer to why you do/feel/believe/think something.

Jen, I am totally on the other side, but I have tried here to respect yours and others like you, and their opinion.

There are foods I don't like, and don't eat. All of us have those. I recently looked up pesto, cause so many of you mentioned how good it is, my son took one look at the picture and said, "NO Mom!"

I agree with you that it IS like a religion, and I too try to give those who differ from me the same respect (who knows? they might be right)

It is very easy to see a film that has been carefully edited to make a point. I have spent my life working with animals, and if we don't treat them right, we don't make money. Unhealthy animals are not economically sound. It is like any investment, you take care of it.

It is so funny in a way, but when you hear a grown man's voice, a rough blustery man, with that little catch, cause "he is back in the bussiness" his first calf of the year on the ground and up and sucking! These people are truly the people who treat animals ethically, and are truly appalled at starvation, or a terrilbe injury or other things that can happen to them.

mk

Jen I so know what you are saying about the animals we do eat and why we don't eat others. We eat herbivores because they taste better but they can get just as attached to people as a dog does. I thought about writing a short story kind of like Planet of the Apes in that someone wakes up in our world but in this world people eat dogs and cats and horses and so on and have cows and pigs and chickens as pets. Kind of Twilight Zonish.

But you talk about humans being 'made' yet don't want to say humans were 'made' eating only vegetables. The Bible shows humans were only allowed to eat meat after the flood when there was little vegetation. We started out as raw food eating vegans with the commission to take care of the animals already here. That is what I believe anyway.

And no I am not rude to people who believe differently and yes I buy and cook meat for my husband- gradually weaning him off it if possible. The biggest reason I still eat seafood and have poultry on occassion is because of my IBS I don't digest beans, lentils, barley and things like that very well. It makes it hard to find meals that agree with my gut.

What we eat is dictated by our culture.

I read somewhere that in the 50s the USDA came up with, and heavily publicized, the idea that we need 50 grams of proteins/day, ideally from animal sources.
Now, 50 grams of proteins are the equivalent of a 2 oz. steak, or piece of chicken, and it represents 15% of one's caloric intake on a 2,000 calories/day diet.

Yet most people nowadays eat way more than the recommended amount, in fact proteins in the typical American diet make up more than 30% of the caloric intake. Add to that the fact than most people consume a lot more calories than they need, and you get the picture.
IMO cutting down on both calories intake and protein consumption is the only way to go.
At that point it doesn't even matter so much what your source of protein is, because you will be consuming a really, really small amount of them.
Also, proteins are proteins. Animal proteins are not superior to those that come from vegetables. I think that at the end we would all benefit from a "kinder" diet.

I agree with you, Jen. I used to run into vegan fanatics back in the 70's at a food co-op, and if you weren't one of them there was something not right about you, and there were those who would try to "convert" you. When they started their holier-than-thou bit about not killing things, I always asked them if they, when a mosquito landed on their arm, would sit their and let them have their fill of blood, or, like me, smash them, and get some satisfaction out of it? I don't think I got many truthful answers! I also reminded them that plants have feelings, and when cut into, emitted electrical charges...maybe a sign of pain? So, ideally, they should be eating only scraps, already dead, so to speak. And I wish I knew then what I now know about some extreme vegetarian cultures, where it is forbidden to harvest such things as potatoes, as they are covered with bacteria - living organisms, which they frown upon killing - and some have strict rules as to how to harvest plants, to prevent violence toward the plants. I could have sparked some controversy with this knowledge back then!

Dave