Ok, I was sitting here wondering. And pardon me here, but I am about to show my ignorance. After doing a bunch of reading, I have learned that you shouldn't save seeds from Hybrids due to the fact that they will revert back to one of the parents. Ok, I can understand that.

Here is my question...

Tons and Tons of hybrid are sold. So how to they gather and produce all those seed?

Another question, How are all the different types of tomatoes "created" without them being hybrids. I understand about open pollinated seeds, well at least sort of. I am just wondering where they all came from.

Thanks for letting me ask this probably simple question, but I just don't understand.

A hybird is a cross between two distinct varieties. Seed producers manipulate the plants to control the germination. In the case of corn the tassles are removed from the one variety so the variety will be pollinated by the other variety.

Most tomato varieties on the market are hybrids. You can plant the seed from hybrids, but the fruit of the second generation won't necessarily be like the parent.

A non hybrid variety can be grown from seed year after year and it will have the same characteristics, as long as it doesn't get pollinated by another variety. I think these varieties were "discovered", or developed by selection over several generations.

James explained hybrids well but a F1 hybrid, first generation, will come true to the characteritics that you want but beyond that, where hybrids are breed to hybrids is where they will revert to one or the other parents, or even the grandparents and usually with all the bad characterisitcs. The F1 hybrids will grow true year after year. Something to keep in mind is that most likely all plants are hybrids, just as we are, but many have certain characteristics that we like so we grow them and because they grow with those characteristics we keep on growing them. Those are the hierloom cultivars. Hybrids are not necessarily bad, just how the genetic engineering was done.

I've never understood it all very well either, and I've been gardening for decades. But I like the statement that we're all hybrids by now!! So true. And more true in the future.

Something else worth mentioning, the F1 hybrid, or put another way, the plants from hybrid seed you buy from a producer, often exibit what has come to be called "hybrid vigor". They may show resistance to disease, be faster growing, produce larger fruit, or have other desirable characteristics not found in the parents.

When you look at the specs on tomatoes, they often say something like "VFN". This means the plants will exhibit resistance to three tomato diseases. I think this disease resistance has been the quest of the tomato producers in their experimentation for better hybrid varieties.

I grow a lot of hybrid varieties and some that are really good. A case in point is Burpee's Hybrid Cantaloupe. That is a true winner.

I would not buy any seed from them because they are owned by the biggest purveyor of GMO seeds in the world.

Hi Anthony, heres a couple terms to wickipedia
GMO (Genetically modified Organism)
F1 Hybrid
Open pollinated
accession

I will use as an example of the latter. Craig used to tour farms for a major food company. One day when touring a feild he noted a tomato plant that was obviously different from all of its surrounding cousins.

When Craig asked about it, the farmer said, "oh thats just a cows tit" meaning a mutation with one obvious feature.

The tomato plant in question had fruit that did in fact very much resemble a cows teat, hence its name. It was a naturally occuring mutation. It happens.

Sometimes that different fruit is both vigorous and fertile. If seed of it is saved a new open pollinated cultivar comes into existance.

Now I've done a real readers digest on this "this is joes tomato" to run out an idea of how sometimes new OP cultivars come into existance.

This aint the only way it happens...

There are a lot of lies about hybrids being spread by the seed sellers.

first a hybrid is bred from 2 super parents. the results are wonderful.

If you wanted to develop a new tomato it would take you too many years to first get the starting hybrid. so get smart. the hybrids are the super best place to look for great new tomatoes. here is how new varieties were make long ago.

first 2 strains were made. then crossed. then you have the f1 hybrid. Now the breeder inbred for 6 to 8 generations and came up with the new strain.

Well Burpee got smart and realized that they should sell the hybrid and not the later generation. it would save time and also not be reproduceable. they could make much more money. of course up to then only a few hybrid seeds were produced. Now Burpee had to produce tons of hybrid seeds. they solved the problems.

Here is what to do.

Get a real nice hybrid f1 and save seeds. that is the f2. make f3, f4, f5, f6 and you are all set. you now have an open poleninated variety that will come back the same. well maybe just a few sports but that is fine.

here is a big advantage. your f6 will have good vigor. not as good as the f1, but certainly a little more than the f100 from some seed from the 1800's heirlooms. after all by f100, the strain is losing its vigor.

here is how the professional keeps up vigor were necessary.

he takes 2 of the same strain and makes 2 new strain runs. then he crosses them. for example say you have BW brandywine. you get some seeds and make new plants next year. those you grow on the top of the hill and those on the bottom of the hill. you do this for several years and finally you cross the two lines back. this increases vigor. still BW but you crossed 2 different lines of BW.

Lets say you pick the burpee porterhouse new tomato seeds. so you get some plants and you pick a good plant. then you save lots of seeds well marked. next year you grow some out marking everything and look for some good ones again. now saving seeds from the good ones. maybe putting the other seeds into frozen storage. and you continue this process. if things do not work like you want then you can go back to your notes on the frozen seeds and start with some different seeds and continue from there.

I guarantee that every time you do this you will have a new good stran of tomato. The only difference is that you selected the strain instead of picking an OP.

I strongly encourage everyone to grow out hybrids and save seeds and develop new stuff. By the way from the original f1 Porterhouse seeds, You should be able to develop several to dozens of different tomatoes simply by your choices.

what could be more fun.

Stop listening to the seed companies spread lies about using the seeds. They are more fun to use than anything else.

Bye the way, what I have described above is exactly what Burpee will do to develop the parents that they will then use to make the next hybrid. They make 2 lines of f6 and cross them and call it another hybrid and they take your money a 2nd time. they know the hybrids they are selling are the best material for everyone to work with. but they do not want you to know that.

Thanks so much to everyone. This is some good reading. I knew there had to be away to save those seeds or they couldn't keep producing new seeds to sell. I knew they didn't come out of thin air, but I wasn't exactly sure just how they did it. I am starting me a list of questions that I want answers to and by this winter, I will get a bunch of books and study. Till then, I will just have fun watching everything grow. Thanks again to eveyone for going to the trouble of typing all that information for me. I really enjoyed reading those posts.

Anthony, A fine old seed house from your end of the world was maned "Porter". There are slew of their old OP cultivars in peoples seed stocks. Rummage around at the seed bank linked to here and on tomoatoville for tomatoes with Porter in their title.

It was bred for your garden. IE it aint broke don't fix it.

Thanks Tom,

I will go and have a looksee.

An F2 hybrid comes from 2 F1 parents, after that it starts to get somewhat complicated with the numbering but the higher the number the further away the plant is from its genetic parents. Plant breeders hybridize seeds for a number of reasons but often disease resistance is the major reason, although sometimes blossom color and shape are factors. Sometimes a hybrid is produced accidently and that most likely is how the first hybrids evolved, by accidental cross breeding. Because of the length of time involved in getting a hybrid the prime reason would not be simply to have a product no one else could sell, for those too young to remember the pursuit of a white marigold that is one example. So who really wants a white marigold anyway?

[quote Kimm1]Posted March 09, 2007 02:50 PM
I would not buy any seed from them because they are owned by the biggest purveyor of GMO seeds in the world.[/quote]

That is up to you.

I have no fear of GMO seed, nor the food they produce.