quote:

Originally posted by topofthehill:

quote:

I believe what weedkicker said, "self-sufficiency sucks!". I don't really want to be self-sufficient. What I do want to be is, prepared for some hard times. I have been around long enough to know that hard times do happen.

This is pretty much my thought as well. I hate to say though, that I'm not very prepared for hard times. I've been thru some hard times in my life, but know that it can always be worse. An injury or long illness would be devastating in our household.

I do worry about having to do without electricity for whatever reason. Outages due to ice are not uncommon in this area and our house is all electric. As yet, I have no backup plan and it worries me. We could go down the street to the guy who has a woodstove, but 25 other people would be there as well.

I like the idea of a 72 hr. pack. I used to live in an area that was prone to flooding. After nearly loosing the house in a flash flood once, having to take the kids and get out due to high water twice, I learned how to be prepared.

This has been a very thought provoking topic. It's interesting to read everyone's ideas and thoughts on the subject.

In modern times 'self sufficiency' seems to have time limits imposed on it for the vast majority of us. Our family can be self sufficient for time...maybe a year of more. But what happens when the storage supplies run out? We could possibly keep going with the lush growth around here is we like to eat weeds and kill small game and crows. But in winter it is bleak.

I don't put too much effort into bug out gear. I got a small 2 person camper in the driveway. And even without the camper, surviving for a few days is not a big deal unless you are stuck out in freezing cold or NYC. (generally speaking)

I put most of my effort into long term survival preparedness, but I still have some bug out gear on hand.

I keep a cooking bug out pack in an orange ammo box. Got 2 propane cookers with a cylinder in it. One is a stripped down pocket size unit, one is full size.

http://www.campingsurvival.com/cetrscprst8b.html

Also 3 SS cooking cups / drinking mugs, eating utensils, hot bev powders, lighters, sugar, etc., I use it a lot in the winter when I want to cook some soup or hot drinks when skiboarding or snowshoeing.

Keep most of my bug out clothes in my car year round packed away in mesh dividers, nooks and crannies. Gore-TeX, cold survival in gear the winter, some tools, Leatherman Core, compass, pen, paper, L.E.D lights, pepper spray, trekking poles, etc...oh have 3 inflatable Thermarest pillows and pack sink as well. Car had a weather band in it. If I am not in the car have a weather scanner to take. Also have SW world band mini radio.

Bug out food is an easy grab. I keep about a dozen home made low fat high protein muffins in the freezer...grab the bag and have enough things to munch on for a coupe or three days. Also have other ready access foods and lots of bottled water to grab in the house.

Also pack a water filter:

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Produc...lebase&keyword=81260

Have many backpacks for different uses. One thing in common with them all is a titanium divers knife mounted on the strap for super easy access...just pull down and it is there.

http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/CategoryID_968/Context_9..._0/SQTKSS.html?Hit=1

Also many odds and ends such as pack sink, ENO hammock, bug net for head, roll pile blanket, Thermarest inflatable butt pad, pocket TV (...it will be useless after '09 when digital comes around), Rad D-Tec, face masks, mace and various weapons, bug spray, T.P., 25% alcohol spray and shower adapter with mini hose, faucet keys to fit various hydrants. Wife has her own pack list includes a lady J.

Speaking of backpacks, got a Stihl 192t chainsaw for one pack if needed.

http://www.stihlusa.com/chainsaws/MS192T.html

Sigg fuel bottles carry the gas.

It is a stripped down model and weighs about 7 pounds. It fits in my backpack so I can hike or bike with it.

I took off the anti kickback safety on it to make it fit better and be lighter (not recommended unless you are experienced tree feller...so don't complain if you get hurt by this mod)

Also have a mid size Thermarest pad that is ready in a stuff sack in my house.

http://www.thermarest.com/product_detail.aspx?pID=53&cID=3

Pretty comfy, but if you need more cush go for the Luxury model for more $$

First aid kits? Got many of em from large laptop size for big trips to a mid size in my car to mini packs in my backpacks. All custom made and individualized.

Was on vacation in the USVI and BVI a few years ago. While walking on the beach to photograph a cove with some sailboats I banged my toe into a large rock in the sand. (The Buddhists saying for this..."when one eye is kept on the destination it only leaves one eye left for the journey.")

I hurt my toe pretty bad and had to keep it bandaged throughout the trip as well as when I returned home. It was a real pain in the ass since the dressing was continually getting wet while diving or snorkeling and had to be changed up to 5 times a day. This experience also reminded me of the importance of a good first aid kit (which I luckily had two of with me.)

quote:

Originally posted by ctdahle:
I am confident that I could feed the family, keep us warm, clothed and watered, but if the stuff really hit the fan, I can't reload fast enough to keep the horde from taking it all.

I feel we could weather a major economic disruption or a complete breakdown of the financial system, but if there is collapse of civil order, we are done for.

One fellow at a gun shop described it in eerily terms. He put his hands halfway in the air and wiggled his fingers in a crawling fashion saying the cities will empty out and the desperate will be scurrying over the hills looking for food or whatever to survive.

Guns will play a life or death role in the new world. A pistol is used to fight your way back to your riffle if you get separated from it...and if all else fails grab your shotgun....so I would buy 3 guns as a MINIMUM. These 3 are the trinity of your self defense foundation.

Of course, if masses of people are on the attack...even guns only go so far. And a low profile helps in such cases until things settle down.

quote:

Originally posted by wasrabbity:
How many of you use "clothes lines" to dry clothing? How many of you ride a bike to work or whereever? I don't do any of those things.. right this minute. But I used to dry clothing on the backyard line until it broke...
I guess I should put in a new one. All that bending over and hanging up clothing is good exercise!! While this area where I live is very hilly... I have been thinking about the best way out of here to get to work if I would try pedalling a bicycle. My jobs are within 3 miles of my house, so I'm thinking.. maybe I should try to get a bike and build up my stamina.. (I am 50 years old and have arthritis!)

Like I said.. I live in a "hillbilly" area and the longest distance I remember going on a bike was 2 miles.. Just how fast do average people pedal?

I looked at the clothes line hardware just the other day at Lowes, trying to figure out how they work. Have not used a clothes line since I was a kid. We had a stationary clothes line back in the day.

Can't ride a bike much in my local. I live in the Ohio Valley. very hilly. I like bikes though.

quote:

Originally posted by French Gardener:
James_1, thanks for the link!

At first I thought, Oh Shoot!, we just built our house and believe me when I say I AIN'T doing it again. Building is a lot of work.

But then, as I read on, I realised a lot of the stuff recommended was stuff that we did. We made our own drawing for the house and thus it just seemed normal and logical to plan according to where the sun was and where the North wind blew. I'm happy to have learned that my home is fairly 'passive solar design'.

Another advantage to having done our own thing as apposed to going with was already on the market. A lot of self-sufficiency is in the attitude, I think. If I don't let myself be influenced by all the consumer friendly stuff all those money making companies are trying to sell me and keep on doing my own thing according to what seems logical and normal to me (not to society) then I believe I'm on my way.

Wasrabbity, I like your attitude of what can I DO NOW, to change things for the present and for the future. Happy peddleling!

Hope you put in wood heat as an option. The NG will be gone in a few dacades.

http://chelseagreen.com/2004/items/highnoon

How many of our homes are set up for efficient heating with natural methods such as wood, pellet, passive solar?

My house is not.

I never gave this subject any thought until I learned about peak natural gas. And by then it was too late.

My house is as far as it can be from the 'ideal house' that can be heated my natural methods. And to make maters worse, I live in the NE US, where it gets plenty cold.

quote:

Originally posted by aprilconnett:
allenwrench,
Look in the drain cleaner section for lye. The btrand that I found is Roebic at Lowe's hardware. You can also order it online. As for learning how to make soap, ask Loamy. I also found www.millersoap.com to be very helpful.

Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by James_1:

quote:

French Gardener: What plants are safe to eat?

There are lots of plants that grow wild that are edible. If finding them interests you, I suggest a book or two. You need to make sure that what you are eating is not toxic. Some plants are very toxic and you want to stay away from them.

Here are some Books and DVD that may be useful.


The Alcohol Fuel Handbook / by Lynn Ellen Doxon.
by Doxon, Lynn Ellen

Art of Nothing
An excellent series of DVD's showcasing primitive skills:
http://www.hopspress.com/Videos/Art_of_Nothing.htm

Barnyard In Your Backyard
edited by Gail Damerow

Basic Essentials. Edible Wild Plants & Useful Herbs
by Meuninck, Jim

Beyond Civilization: humanity's next great adventure
by Quinn, Daniel

Beyond Oil: the view from Hubbert's Peak
by Deffeyes, Kenneth S.
http://www.princeton.edu/hubbert/

The Biodiesel Handbook
by Gerhard Knothe

Bowling Alone: the collapse and revival of American community
by Putnam, Robert D.

The Bread Builders:hearth loaves and masonry ovens
by Wing, Daniel

Breathe No Evil
Safe-Tek Publishers

Brown's Second Alcohol Fuel Cookbook.
by Brown, Michael Halsey

Build a Root Cellar & Storm Shelter
by Hobson, Phyllis

Bushcraft
by Mors Kochanski
Great reference on primitive wood skills.

The Can Opener Gourmet
by Karr, Laura

The Citizen-Powered Energy Handbook: community solutions to a global crisis
by Greg Pahl
http://www.chelseagreen.com/2007/items/citizenpowered

Collapse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_(book

The Coming Economic Collapse - how you can thrive when oil costs $200 a barrel
by Leeb, Stephen

The Complete Book of Dutch Oven Cooking
by Fears, J. Wayne

The Complete Book of Fire: building campfires for warmth, light, cooking, and survival
by Tilton, Buck

The Complete Book of Survival
by Stahlberg, Rainer
An outstanding all encompassing guide to the philosophy of surviving - Highly Recommended.

The Complete Guide to Edible Wild Plants
by Lyle, Katie Letcher

Country Wisdom & Know-how
Numerous authors and publishers...all contain worthwhile information.
http://www.amazon.com/Country-Wisdom-Know-How-Editors-P...shings/dp/1579123686

Crossing the Rubicon: the decline of the American empire at the end of the age of oil
by Ruppert, Michael C.

A Crude Awakening - the oil crash
Lava Productions AG, Switzerland DVD
http://www.oilcrashmovie.com/

Dancing at Armageddon: Survivalism and Chaos in Modern Times
by Richard G. Mitchell Jr

Edible Wild plants
by Meuninck, James

Edible Wild Plants of Pennsylvania and Neighboring states
by Medve, Richard J.

Edible and Medicinal Plants of the West
Gregory L. Tilford
http://www.amazon.com/Edible-Medicinal-Plants-Gregory-Tilford/dp/0878423591

Emergency Preparedness. Awareness & Survival
DVD Apogee Communication, 2006 - Highly Recommended.
http://www.apogeevideo.com/emergency/emergency.htm

The End of Suburbia - oil depletion and the collapse of the American dream
by Greene, Gregory DVD
Don't miss the commentary. Lots of Canadian prejudice against the US as well as snobbery, but very worthwhile behind the scene info.
http://www.endofsuburbia.com/

Farming for Self-sufficiency
by John and Sally Seymour

Field Guide to Edible Wild Plants of Eastern and Central North America
by Peterson, Lee.

First Aid for Dogs.
Various authors under related titles...First Aid for Cats...Horses...Pets....even Insects!

Four-Season Harvestrganic vegetables from your home garden all year long.
by Eliot Coleman

Going Local: creating self-reliant communities in a global age
by Shuman, Michael

Grit Magazine
http://www.grit.com/

Guns and Ammo Magazine

High Noon for Natural Gas: the new energy crisis
by Darley, Julian
http://www.highnoon.ws/

House on a Budget:making smart choices to build the home you want.
by Duo Dickinson

How to Dry Foods
by DeLong, Deanna.

Life after doomsday
by Bruce D. Clayton

The Long Emergency: surviving the converging catastrophes of the twenty-first century
by Kunstler, James Howard

Magic of Wheat Cookery
by Tyler, Lorraine Dilworth

Making Your Own Motor Fuel
by Fred Stetson

Master list of survival books:
http://www.survivalcenter.com/bookbs.html

Mother Earth Magazine
Al back issues available on CD ROM for nominal cost from:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/

Natural Home Heating: the complete guide to renewable energy options
by Pahl, Greg

Nutrition and well-being A to Z
Delores C.S. James editor

Oil Apocalypse
History channel DVD

The Oil Depletion Protocol : a plan to avert oil wars, terrorism and economic collapse
by Heinberg, Richard

The Omnivore's Dilemma
www.michaelpollan.com/omnivore.php

Pantry Cooking : quick and easy food storage recipes
by Robins, Laura

PDR for Herbal Medicines
by Medical Economics

Peak Oil Survival: preparation for life after gridcrash
by McBay, Aric

Powerdown: options and actions for a post-carbon world
by Heinberg, Richard

Primitive Living, Self-sufficiency, and Survival Skills : a field guide to primitive living skills
by Elpel, Thomas J.

The Renewable Energy Handbook:a guide to rural independence, off-grid and sustainable living
by William H. Kemp

Resource Wars: the new landscape of global conflict
by Klare, Michael T
http://www.amazon.com/Resource-Wars-Landscape-Conflict-...uction/dp/0805055762

Root Cellaring : the simple no-processing way to store fruits and vegetables
by Bubel, Nancy./Bubel, Mike

Seed to Seed: seed saving techniques for the vegetable gardener
by Ashworth, Suzanne

Shelters, Shacks, and shanties: the classic guide to building wilderness shelters
by Beard, Daniel Carter

A Thousand Barrels a Second: the coming oil break point and the challenges facing an energy dependent world
by Tertzakian, Peter

Twilight in the Desert: the coming Saudi oil shock and the world economy
by Simmons, Matthew R.
Well written book examining 12 of the key Saudi oil fields.

U.S. Army combat skills handbook / Department of the Army.
Lyon's Press

Who Killed the Electric Car?
Sony Pictures Classics release
http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/

Zips, Pipes, And Pens: Arsenal Of Improvised Weapons
by J. David Truby

Zoom:the global race to fuel the car of the future
by Iain Carson and Vijay V. Vaitheeswaran.

quote:

Originally posted by James_1:
I don't do mushrooms, because I don't even like them.

The identification of plants is pretty complicated. I did take a taxonomy class in college so I got the basics. I guess you can always do that?

In my area there is over 5000 species of plants, so you can see what you are up against?

I have a "Nature Bound Pocket Field Guide", published by Pacific Press Publishing Association in Boise Idaho. The author is Ron Dawson. This little book lists many edible plants with pictures, descriptions, uses, and history. It also lists many poisonous plants.

Many of our weeds are edible plants. I have a good book on the weeds of Utah, and it helps to identify them. Alas it does not say if they are edible. Some of the more toxic ones are so noted.

Another resource I like is a Petersen Field Guide for the plants of the National Parks in the West. In this he says if they are edible or poisonous.

I just don't know what you may find about your local flora, but would guess there is information available.. If you have a College or university near, check with them.

Try a Google search.

This is a quote from Nature Bound: "If you cannot positively identify a plant, do not consider using it as a food source."

Mushrooms scare me, but I do like em.

Here is a good place to start for foragers. Check out the plant section of his site.

http://www.wildmanstevebrill.com/

I've got a clothesline that is really fun. It's one of those 1950's box on a pole with inclined lines that spins. One brand is Sunbrella umbrella-style clothes dryer. It only takes up a 5 foot space. It's efficient, holds lots of clothes and easily pays for itself. Even my husband likes it and wants to hang up clothes on it!

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=...searchId=27710884103


Wood stoves these days have catalytic converters in them to cut down on the particles in the smoke so as not to pollute the air. In larger metropolitan areas there are no-burn days, which includes wood stoves unless they have a converter. And unless you have a local source of wood (and you need a lot for a winter), relying on wood brought in from a distant source is not very carbon neutral.

Passive solar, on the other hand, is something that can help.

http://www.jc-solarhomes.com/passive_solar.htm

Perhaps I should get one of those clotheslines and put the-m up close enough to my house that I can hang underwear on them.. I do live in town where when one "Hangs out their dirty laundry" Folks can view it driving by.

Here it is so arid that a clothes line would seem to make good sense. But we tried it and found that with hot and arid comes windy and dusty. By the time the clothes were dry they were also coated with a fine layer of dust. The first thought was "the line dried sheets smell like mountain sage" The second thought was "Eeewwww, I itch all over and have to take a shower".

quote:

Originally posted by ctdahle:
Here it is so arid that a clothes line would seem to make good sense. But we tried it and found that with hot and arid comes windy and dusty. By the time the clothes were dry they were also coated with a fine layer of dust. The first thought was "the line dried sheets smell like mountain sage" The second thought was "Eeewwww, I itch all over and have to take a shower".

Sounds like you need some pine trees planted on the upwind side of your clothesline. They would cut the winds ome, but the would also cut the dust A LOT!