Looking for volunteers to help design an intensive crop system for use in a fully contained facility (similar to a greenhouse). Heating, cooling, water, lights, nutrients are all assumed provided for, but all lighting is artificial.

Anybody interested in posting to help create such a concept?

Oh, I've been daydreaming about that for years. How big, and will it be automated, or have living creatures integrated?

Its a daydream that is feasible. Extensive, difficult, expensive, dangerous, but feasible.

Current design parameters we are looking at is a 30x100 foot inflated habitat which will then bet an earthbag shelter built over it. This facility contains everything from the fish tanks, the crops, and the working labs, to private areas, meeting space, storage and galley.

We state for 30 people. But the first habitat is for the first 9 people (=/- natural change). The next crew of same size will also bring at least the same size habitat to attach, as will the third crew. Total, 30+.

But the three crews are arriving aproximately 22 months apart. So initially, 9 for two years, 18 for two more years, and 27 for the next two years. We expect each crew to bring standard food supplies for two years, emergency supplies for three, and subsequent crews to bring partial resupply for previous crews.

The actual cropping is to be as automated as a small group can handle, but next to oxygen is probably the most important task for ALL members to be involved in.

Would like to plan a grand overlapping garden scheme, and storage system for excess.

This is brought to this thread as a gardening question. As much as I like discussing all the aspects of a Mars Colony, this is not the place for it. To design an intense cropping plan with variety and nutrition we will assume all other aspects are covered and in place.

Key-- no sunlight since facility will be covered with Mars regolith, minimal nitrogen and oxygen although we will take what we determine we need per crew. All plants should have more then one usage plan if possible. This is the life of the proposed colony.

And if you don't care about our Mars plan fine. But the same concepts can be applied to the Moon, or to any desert on earth, or any remote frigid area, or third world famine.... etc.... So your intellectual contribution can benefit others besides our stated goal.

The entire facility is integrated of course, and living creatures are the humans living there. We have some problem with being assured animals can make it to Mars, and in supplying feed long before gardens can do so. AT this point we are hoping to succed with Tilapia, Rabbits, and dwarf goats. Earthworms and perhaps bees will be included. Pollinators need more consideration.

I presume you have read over the results of the biosphere project, which would show what worked and what didn't. Would you be relying on the plants for oxygen or getting that from another source? What about water? Light appears to be the main problem. Your artificial lights would have to be strong enough to provide for the needs of the plants, which would increase energy consumption. If the facility is underground to avoid radiation problems (the thin atmosphere is not very protective),would it be possible to reflect sunlight inside, using a mirror system. Another problem is space. How much of the 30x100 will be available for plants. You might also look back several years in Discover magazine, where they have had several articles about ways to settle the moon and Mars. The one on Mars was most fascinating, as it had a way to build up an atmosphere over a period of time. The new explorations should provide good info on what minerals are available. Some materials could be broken down to provide essentials.

The pollinators are what I was thinking about. It would be close quarters to have pollinators in that small an area, especially if we were talking productive pollinators, like bees. I'm assuming you want everything to be as productive as possible and useable for more that one thing. Hmmm, so self pollinating or wind pollinated crops only. In that small an area it would be seriously difficult to plant enough grain crops to feed that many people for any length of time, Maybe with something like amaranth, chia, or quinoa, but not with the traditional wheat and corn type crops, and they would leave scant place to grow other things. I would definately suggest vining plants, like pole beans and peas, Malabar spinach, and indeterminate tomatoes, since you get a LOT of produce, produced steadily over a long period of time. Perhaps using the three sisters version of planting with corn, you could get your grain crop with squash and pole beans, since they entertwine nicely.

Were you planning on doing hydroponics, or a real soil application? Would you be using the humanure as fertilizer? Are you using mostly mars soil or importing soil?

If you are using a soil application I would also use a good all purpost inoculant, like BioVam, since a sterile soil isn't the best for growing plants. This will help digest and make available rock bound nutrients, and will help to hold the fish water nutrients in place, instead of just washing through. A hydroponically grown flat of salad greens, cucurbits, or even fruits like strawberries utilizing your fish water, or even floating on the fish tanks would work well. Taro planted in the tanks would also provide a food crop (the roots can be cooked and eaten)

Since you will be maintaining a steady temperature, tropicals are definately what you will be wanting to grow. If you were to grow fruit trees, like guava, papaya, pomegranate...etc...Then they could act as supports for, say, vanilla ordhics, black pepper vines, passionfruit vines

If you wanted to expand to plants that needed a dormant period, like apples, grapes, etc...then you would need to have another section which is kept cool for about three months at a time, in the 40's or below in temperature. Perhaps your successive crew members could bring the required tools and supplies to produce that (it would be interesting, in the process, to introduce some lichens and other small plants from, say, the tops of the himalayas and other harsh atmospheres to the martian surface to see if they could survive...but I digress)

Unfortunately, to make the whole thing as productive as possible and as efficient as possible, it can't be all that automated. They will need nearly daily harvesting and tending by a human who can judge what needs trimming back or readjusting. Automated crops are usually the type that are uniform, have lots of wasted space between them and produce all at once. The watering system, of course, could easily be automated.

Hmmm. Multiple purpose crops...Sugar beets. They can be eaten small like table beets, and their greens used as salad or cooked greens, they can be used to make sugar and molasses (which feeds soil bacteria and helps the composting process), and the pulp can be used for high quality animal fodder. Brassicas can be harvested for human use, then the stems and leaves can be used as fodder for the animals. Pole beans can be harvested green for green beans, harvested ripe for shelly beans and harvested dry for dry beans. When the beans are hard, but shells are still green, the shells can be used for fodder, and the vines themselves can be used for fodder.

I hate to mention kudzu, but it is truly a multipurpose vine. Kudzu jelly from the flowers, kudzu starch from the vines, kudzu paper, kudzu baskets...it is truly useful.Maybe if you kept it very isolated in a pot?

When you speak of multiple uses, are you including dyes, pollen, nectar, medicine, cloth production...or just multiple food uses?

Oh, garden dmpls...that reminds me...The radiation...If you have cesium and strontium and such...heavy metals due to radiation, in the soil, you can use cleaner crops, like sunflowers, to prepare the way...

Brennewoman reminded me of how much detail is involved in planning for growing things in an artificial environment. For example, in biosphere, the trees eventually collapsed under their own weight. It seems that trees need wind to strengthen their wood; the movement causes them to produce better lignin fibers, much like exercise strengthens our muscles. When I think about how inticate the interconnections are in our world, I am in awe.

Actually, I was thinking about radiation from space. We are protected somewhat by our atmosphere and the ozone layer.

Yes, it all interacts. Moving air helps, but you can simulate that by moving them artificially...the steady pulling of vines growing up them can help too...And I'm assuming, since this is kind of a small space, that they would be keeping the trees contained and dwarfed to keep that from happening. Perhaps I shouldn't assume..hmm? So yes, any of the trees should be kept in containers which will restrict their growth to keep them manageable, yet productive. Hmmm. Cashew nuts do well in containers and their fruit is edible (though doesn't store well) as well as the nut, though it must be processed before eating it. Hazelnuts...they need a cool season, though...Hmmm. Peanuts could be easily grown in the soil...Macadamia nuts can be grown in year round climates...any other nuts that can grow in the tropics? cultivated mushrooms might do well in a Mars situation...Hmmm

I have to tell you that the reponses already are fantastic. Thanks. I will be returning in a few hours from the ogoing job hunt to respond to every point in the messages.

> The pollinators are what I was thinking about. It
> would be close quarters to have pollinators in that
> small an area, especially if we were talking
> productive pollinators, like bees.

*** I would prefer a means to have honey bees, of course, but am not sure we can provide enough for them to live on in the short term. Perhaps in the future...so pollination is by hand, and natural air flow or pehaps with butterflies.

> I'm assuming you
> want everything to be as productive as possible and
> useable for more that one thing. Hmmm, so self
> pollinating or wind pollinated crops only. In that
> small an area it would be seriously difficult to
> plant enough grain crops to feed that many people for
> any length of time, Maybe with something like
> amaranth, chia, or quinoa, but not with the
> traditional wheat and corn type crops, and they would
> leave scant place to grow other things.

*** Yes, the traditional farm crops are space hogs. However, there are varieites of dwarf wheat available designed for space growth, these can be grown in flat layers that can also be stacked. I have looked at amaranth, and quinoa and Kenaf. In my view, anything grown has to have multiple uses, and preferrable companion planting.

> I would
> definately suggest vining plants, like pole beans and
> peas, Malabar spinach, and indeterminate tomatoes,
> since you get a LOT of produce, produced steadily
> over a long period of time. Perhaps using the three
> sisters version of planting with corn, you could get
> your grain crop with squash and pole beans, since
> they entertwine nicely.

*** Unless corn varieties are more productive then my experience has shown, it would be delayed for future faciliites allowing expanded growth areas.

> Were you planning on doing hydroponics, or a real
> soil application?

*** Extensive hyrdo- and aero- ponics would seem to be required in order to make best use of space and facilities. As a plus they can help in the water recylcing process. Soil is limited and actually will have to be created for use since it appears the Mars soil is "dead". Inoculants and humas will need to be added.

> Would you be using the humanure as
> fertilizer?

*** All waste has to be recycled. Humanure as well. However, use of humanure casuses mental distress with many people, so perhaps it would be composted and steralized, then mixed with earthworm beds for longer term, then recomposted with greenmanure. A longer process, but may alleviate concerns.

> Are you using mostly mars soil or importing soil?

*** We would be importing almost NO earth soil. Sort of along the lines of sourdough bread...a starter of soil but having to develop the available Mars soil for suitability as we went. Soil usuage is probably the least of our planting methods although larger plantings, and those needing less care, would be prime candidates for soil usage. Veggies probably steared towards hydro/aero.
>
> If you are using a soil application I would also use
> a good all purpost inoculant, like BioVam, since a
> sterile soil isn't the best for growing plants. This
> will help digest and make available rock bound
> nutrients, and will help to hold the fish water
> nutrients in place, instead of just washing through.

*** Yes, agreed.

>...but I digress)

*** Please do... digression in this frame can lead to unique solutions. However, the first step is cropping entirely with a facility, not on the open surface of Mars (yet).

> Unfortunately, to make the whole thing as productive
> as possible and as efficient as possible, it can't be
> all that automated. They will need nearly daily
> harvesting and tending by a human who can judge what
> needs trimming back or readjusting. Automated crops
> are usually the type that are uniform, have lots of
> wasted space between them and produce all at once.
> The watering system, of course, could easily be
> automated.

*** Has anybody ever told you that gardeners/farmers are the most important livlihood? On Mars they certainly would be. All members of the colony crew would server in the cropping areas part of the time, but the single greatest job specialist will be those dealing with food production.
>
> Hmmm. Multiple purpose crops...Sugar beets. They can
> be eaten small like table beets, and their greens
> used as salad or cooked greens, they can be used to
> make sugar and molasses (which feeds soil bacteria
> and helps the composting process), and the pulp can
> be used for high quality animal fodder.

*** Exactly what we need to do. Find the multi uses of the plants to be considered.

> Brassicas can be harvested for human use, then the stems and leaves can be used as fodder for the animals. Pole beans can be harvested green for green beans, harvested ripe for shelly beans and harvested dry for dry beans. When the beans are hard, but shells are still green, the shells can be used for fodder, and the vines themselves can be used for fodder.
>
> I hate to mention kudzu, but it is truly a
> multipurpose vine. Kudzu jelly from the flowers,
> kudzu starch from the vines, kudzu paper, kudzu
> baskets...it is truly useful.Maybe if you kept it
> very isolated in a pot?

*** I have looked at Kudzu but may have an inordinate fear of it. Kenaf seemed to fit the bill better than Kudzu. The starch would be useful, yes, but are other parts of it human digestible? If making Jelly is going to require sugar or other imported requirements, then it would be a resounding no. We have to be able to use what we grow without relying on earth-side resources.
>
> When you speak of multiple uses, are you including
> dyes, pollen, nectar, medicine, cloth production...or
> just multiple food uses?

*** Good question. I think of multi use as first being human eatible, then fodder and human consumables. I don't think of pollen as an edible because of the quantity required, and the labor it would take. Veggies, fruit, stems and leaves are first use...when labor becomes so extensive that it would be better to grow something else then a plant is of less value. I personally thought of using flax, but Kenaf seems to have it beat. I have always wanted to deal with amaranth, but quionoa may be a better choice. I love corn, but if I can grow 4-6 layers of dwarf wheat in the same square feet, then corn has no value in early stages.

Yes, but the biosphere included much more then we can. We can not include large trees in short term and most smaller trees shrubs waste to much space for high production levels. Taking seed is great, but cuttings would be very limited (valuable as quick starting) because of onboard space.

Oxygen refreshment. That is how we look at the oxygen from plants. Mechanical/chemical means are provided that can turn the 95% co2 atmosphere into oxygen as needed, but nothing beats the fresh air of a garden. So plants are foremost human food.

Water has to be imported and recycled. It is hoped that additional water sources can be developed from soil and/or ice formations. A limited amount of hydrogen is taken for various conversion processes, and this will include the production of additional water -- but most of that water would be reformed so that the hydrogen could be reused. This does allow adding some water to our enclosed system if needed, but is not expected. Water is more precious then oxygen to a Mars crew.

BINGO! Thanks. Had not thought of relected light. DUH. Yes, reflecting light into the facility is feasible and a reasonable expectation. Although we can say energy is unlimited there are limitations and storage is difficult.

Expectations are that the 30x100 can be enlarged but we have no firm grasp on it yet. In the mean time, if you looked at it as just one layer, like an outdoors garden, it would be only about 50% available for cropping. However, at 12-18 feet tall and with hydro/aero systems as well as soil systems, we are estimating a working cropping surface of 5000 sq ft.

Yet, if we use the 3,000 ground area as a working number we have to take out 1000 ft for work areas and personal areas (which will include container growth units), and 350 ft for tilapia production. And 250 ft for unusable space. So, 1500 sq ft is a baseline. Overhead structures can be included, hanging facilities as well, and all floor units that go vertically increas space.

We do look at all articles and research we can find. Or at least we try...:P

WE do have one other major hurdle. The site selection is generalized, and the mineral break down is as well. Actual landing may be far enough away from intended site that the mineral breakdown is wrong for projected usage. This is offset somewhat by the fact that additional supplies and crew are being sent and their supplies can be reconfigured for the landing site.

What is the most prolific nut? Peanuts? Even if they don't store well the nuts can be pressed. Although we do have unlimited freezing storage (any container left outside is an instant freezer.)

Lets project that it is semi tropical. If it will grow in a home at a temp range of 70-78 it is feasible for the initial habitats. Greater ranges have to be held for later facilities where temps can be adjusted.

A productive peanut plant with a companion planting would be good.

Mushrooms.. yum yum... been thinking about them although I never was able to cultivate such on my own. Would like to see a variety of shrooms grown as soon as we can create the right conditions for such.

I guess I can't delete my own messages. Sorry this thread was not needed then. I just got excited with the responses I saw but had to go out the door and didn't want to leave for hours without posting.

The most prolific tomatoe plants I ever grew were cherry tomatoes, a super sweet, that was planted along side my garage in Houston nearly 20 years ago. They grew over 14 ft tall, and had cascades of tomatoes on them all summer long, into the fall, and past xmas.

It is this kind of growth I'd like to see. We will have a mini cherry picker, or raising platform anyway so height is not a problem.

In a one square foot area I got more than 3 bushels of cherry tomatoes, and had six such plants. 18 bushels (not counting all the ones kids and I ate while in the yard).