I am trying to learn as much about permaculture as I can, and was wondering if anybody on this board practices it.
If you do, would you be willing to share your experiences? Would you also be willing to share failures that you have learned from?

TIA! :8}

The only folks I know who are 100% into permaculture are professors, teachers, thinkers, philosophers, etc. Only in the class room or in theorical discussions. It is extremely hard in real life to be 100% a permaculturist on a mid-size to large scale size sustainable farming system.

I'm almost a permaculturist in my philosophy on my small no-till sustainable farm. I totally make all my homemade composts, natural fertilizers, pesticides, various biostimulant teas, and I grow my my own transplants from seed in my greenhouse.

I don't have the time, money, or knowledge right now to build my own self-sustaining electrical energy system, generator, cattle, chickens, other livestocks, etc. for a full range permacultural system.

Its more of a journey than a destination. I think CaptainCompost is heading that way. In fact, any garden system that becomes more self reliant on its own resources and less dependent on inputs is headed that way. That is certainly a valid interpretation of the "Agri-culture" part or Permaculture. The socio-political "-culture" and institutions are also a part of the interpretation.

Where we are heading counts a lot. Maybe more than where we are...


Message was edited by: nicko

I strive for a permacultural lifestyle. I agree with the thought that it is a journey more than a destination. Check out the book "Gaia's Garden: A Guide to Home-Scale Permaculture" by Toby Hemenway. Excellent reference for beginning your own little piece of permaculture, even on an urban or suburban lot.

Basically, I strive to place things in relationships that allow them to benefit each other and me with minimal interference on my part, remembering that if I set things in the proper relationships, they will take care of each other with riotous abudance. I try to embrace all the aspects of my space, rather than fighting against the landscape and natural elements. And I try to think of plants in terms of function, and ensure that every planting has some items that fulfill each function--nitrogen fixers, nutrient accumulators, insect and wildlife attractors, mulch makers, and food and medicine for humans. I also try to take advantage of all the levels of a garden--tree, shrub, herb, ground cover, root, and vine--so that I can fit all those functions comfortably in each section of my garden.

I have found that it is difficult to organize things so that they fit all the requirements of permaculture, but I do try to fit some of the basics--more than one function for each element, and every function redundant within the garden.

Anyway, it's late and I need to go to bed (and I'm not particularly articulate at the moment). Check out Hemenway. It's an outstanding resource on the topic. There was also an article in OG some years ago that was my first introduction to the topic, about a small organic farm (don't remember where) that is organized around permacultural principles. Maybe Scott will poke his head in and refer us to the right issue.

I'd love to talk more about this with you, because I'm new at all this and am really interested in applying more and more permacultural principles in my life. Let us know your experiences so far, and your hopes and aspirations.

Blessings,

Heather

I practice permaculture not only because I'm trying to do the right thing with my land, but also to understand the forces of nature, that once set in motion with the right kind of design and understanding, will do what it does best, provide healthy basics for me and the land.

It's very labor intensive to set up. But once it's in place, it does extremely well at doing a lot of the work I would normally have to do. In fact, it's so productive I can get easily overwhelmed harvesting and maintaining.

With permaculture designs in mind I have set up solar and wind power, a composting toilet, gravity fed water systems, orchard and garden plantings, and lately the mandala-style garden,and designing the garden with the solstice in mind. There are several people at this site building chicken tractors, which is also one of the setting-nature-in-motion designs.

Bill Mollison's book Permaculture is the first book on it, and is excellent at explaining the use of the principles of the forces of nature and shapes that repeat in nature to design "personal ecosystems" that function efficiently and effectively.

Here is an interesting interview with Bill Mollison:

http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC28/Mollison.htm

There is also a center in Northern California that has a permaculture setup with great examples of fountains, solar, etc.

http://www.realgoods.com

Their items are expensive, and you can often find them elsewhere, but they do have a lot of great information.

What is it about permaculture that you are interested in doing?

I would also like to do what's best with my land, as well as economically healthy in the long run. I do understand that this means it will likely be labor-intensive, or at least parts of it will be. I would like to be as self-sufficient as possible so far as producing our own food. We've got 3 acres paid off, and are paying on an adjoining 3 acres.

I don't have any firm plans yet, mostly just ideas. I'd like to grow bamboos, (sweetshoot, giant moso), plant fruit trees, manage our huckleberry crop, establish more fruiting perennial vines and bramble crops. I eventually want to try my hand at the raising redworms under rabbits thing, using bananas as shelter and cooling for my rabbitry (and perhaps even a banana crop or two). I eventually want to try raising a hog, establishing a goat herd, and getting chicken tractors up and running.

I'll write at length a bit later.

I see how serious you want to get. How wonderful to have some of your land paid off!

There was a site with a wonderful diagram of planting efficiently and interactively so as to let the plants work together, but it's gone now.

It was a 30-foot circle with berries growing on a 4 foot circular fence. The very center of the circle has a nitrogen fixing tree or shrub in it to drop mulch and improve soil. There is a mandala-shaped path from 1 opening, like in the shape of daisy flower petals, and all vegetables are grown between the path and the berries. There are 5 fruit trees just inside the berries at 12:00, 2:30, 5:30, 8:30, 10:30.

This design allows for 95 feet of berries, 5 fruit trees and enough vegetables to feed a family of 4. The mulch drops very close to where it's needed and saves you hauling.

The reason for the mandala-shaped path is to keep the ratio of path to growing space down, so as to be more productive. Traditional rows can use up to 30% of growable space!

Also, if you need to put a fence around the entire plantings, there's much less fencing around such a well-designed growing area.

You can plant green manures (nitrogen fixing cover crops like purple vetch) to bring nitrogen into the soil when that crop breaks down, approx. a 1-year process before that nitrogen is available.

But if you continue to use the green manure it will continue to amend the soil with no hauling on your part, just mowing if you want. Vetch actually pulls away easily by hand. If you want to till it at the end of the season to speed it up, you can, but it's not necessary.

If you research nitrogen fixing trees, be careful not to plant a tree that reaches 40-100 feet. Some of them are HUGE, and will create troublesome shade. You might say to yourself that you'll keep it at a reasonable height, but eventually that tree will get out of hand, you'll get interrupted by life, and it will be a nightmare to maintain.

But good shrubs that are manageable are eleagnus, acacia, wisteria, redbud, hardenbergia vine.

If you've already planted a traditional orchard in rows, if you can remove some of them and replace them with nitrogen fixing vines, you will improve even a traditional planting.

I hope this helps you in planning things, and let us know how it goes!

You understand! I want to plan to use my land as efficiently and effectively as possible. (Beware - - this is a long reply - - I said I'd write more at length later! )
That is exactly the reason I am trying to learn and apply square-foot (or biointensive) gardening here. I would like to start learning mandala design, and seeing if I can't work something out. (Many of our trees do get taller than 40 feet.) I don't know if a mandala per se will work out, but I think perhaps some sort of zones might. ?:|

Like what I'd like to do with rabbits - - I saw that at a man's home in Orange Grove. His banana trees grew at 15-20 ft. tall per season, grew lovely hands full of naturally ripened organic bananas (which were sometimes sold), and provided shade and cooling for the rabbits. The rabbits ate garden excess produce, (as well as bought feed - but I'd like to try for Bermuda hay in my orchard), provided meat and income for the family, and made rich coco-puffs for the redworms. The wigglers ate the bunny poos, fertilized the bananas which helped produce the banana crop, made tons of worm castings, which went back into the garden, and excess castings were sold for yet a bit more income for the family. Not totally a closed system, mainly because rabbit pellets and peat moss (the bedding base for the wigglers) were brought in from outside the property. But not a bad idea.

Not exactly sure how I'd work goats in, nor hogs. (Ideas, anyone?) We've planted figs and pecans already, and huckleberry, wild muscadines, dewberries, Maypop passionflower, and giant hickory are native here. I would like to establish a bamboo grove (perhaps two), but I am not sure where it integrates. (I'd love to be able to construct temporary fences and shelters using bamboo instead of PVC!) I would like to try to weave living willows to help with erosion down by the pond. I also want willow for its many other useful qualities. Once erosion is under control, I want to try to plant useful aquatics and try to stock the pond with bream. I need to integrate my poultry flocks so they help control insects and fertilize, and I can collect eggs easily, but don't disrupt plantings, which is why I am looking into chicken tractors.
I had considered bees, but I am rather sensitive to insect bites, so I figured I'd be better off supporting our local beekeeper about 8 miles down the road.

Ideally, I'd love to have solar hot water, solar power (but MS doesn't do tie-ins to the grid, so that's not economically feasible at this time), and plumb all my greywater to a rock-reed system, which could then be used to irrigate Bermuda for animal feed. If I were to have any permanent animal shelters, I'd love to try my hand at cob building. I did try to see about a composting commode system when we were moving up here, but because it was considered experimental, we'd have to hire an engineer to look over our system and sign off on it, send it off to the state for their approval, and then submit to having it monitored by the engineer for a period of several years. (Paying him the entire time, I've no doubt.) And I think we would have also been subject to the permitting requirements and periodic inspection by the state DEQ. And I'd've been monitored on landspreading the resultant compost, as well. :O Yee-haw. :| They certainly know how to discourage a girl. Plus DH is less than wild about all the above alternative solar and WWT stuff, so I'm not likely to get any of it. I am currently trying to convince him to plumb several 500-gallon wire-enclosed cubes to a roof rainwater catchment system for irrigation of my garden and trees. (He wants to fill them using well water and situate them near my garden fence; I want them smack next to the back of the house, use rainwater to fill, and gravity and back-pressure to deliver water via hose to soaker hoses in the garden. Also I'd like to use the wire grid on the cube enclosures to grow fruiting and/or flowering vines on.) I'm still working on trying to sweet-talk him into solar hot water.

But I definitely want to try to integrate things into a as much of an inter-related whole as possible, and use our resources, terrain, and almost year-round growing season to our best advantage. But as I said, right now it's kind of nebulous, and I am trying to gather the knowledge I need to try to integrate things and get a better grasp on what I very tenuously have in mind at this point. I know that all those things are very ambitious projects in and of themselves. I am not asking for perfect harmony and a closed system, but rather something that will work for us.
I am looking at this as more of a work in progress than anything that I will ever "finish", but it seems to me to be a productive use of my time and effort.

It is my pie-in-the-sky dream, and I may never achieve it; parts of it may evolve, or may need to be discarded. But I'd like to play with it, and perhaps have something worth leaving to my children and grandchildren some day.

Your plan sounds wonderful, and the chickens and worms are a great part of it. It is wonderful to collect water and have gravity move it around. One of the best sounds at my place is hearing that trickle of water going into the tank all on its own. It makes everything possible. How fun to do some tropical plants there.

Here is the Australia Permaculture message board that you will find very serious information about Permaculture and people who are really living off the grid.

http://forums.permaculture.org.au/archive/o_f__f_1__permaculture-chat.html

And just because I've been at this a while, if you don't mind, let me mention some pros and cons. I don't say these things to be discouraging, but just to research which varieties of plants will work better and which things you really will want to spend time on in the years to come.

There is one issue with permaculture, and I think it's a valid one, that it often suggests the use of invasive, non-native plants that are dangerous to set loose in one's part of the world, and can get easily out of your control. There are other, more reasonable alternatives that will work better, and researching those is important.

One's enthusiasm at the beginning is going to create a shocking amount of ongoing maintenance that will, over the years, wear you down, and have you spending money on things that may end up being abandoned. At this point all of these things seem good, but if they turn your life into not being able to do anything else, especially on weekends when family and friends want social time, it's important to pick and chose the most crucial projects first, watch each one over a season, and decide just how much work into the future each will require.

I've had to sadly undo several of my early projects, that wasted money and plenty of hours in setting up and maintaining. And it can take days to undo some of them, days we need for other things!

Caution about bamboo!! Terrifically invasive and almost uncontrollable in the ground. I agree it's a great source of poles, but it will spread underground in terrifying ways. It can lift fences and kill other plants. I would start with large tub-sized pots in the shade. It's tough stuff, and can take some drought that pots create. But to let it loose is asking for trouble. I am going to try this because if a metal rebar pole gets left in the ground, the mower will find it!! And bingo, there's an expensive repair!! If a mower hits bamboo it's not a problem.

The animals are great, and are an important part of it all, but they do require time every single day, and money to feed and care for, plus vet bills $$$$$. If you get emotionally attached to animals that could get attacked and injured, sick, they can add increasing stress in your lives. Expensive fencing to keep them safe from the predators they will attract is a constant thing to keep track of.

Year after year after year you don't want to get into the situation where you have no choice about every day doing 20 minutes on 10 different chores = several hours each day that MUST happen, rain or shine. It will become drudgery. You won't be able to go away on vacation without paying someone to do everything you do there, which is difficult for people who aren't into it.

Bermuda grass....it also is horribly invasive and can kill trees and vines it surrounds, can go 50 feet across a slab of cement and reestablish itself and spread underground again. If you don't use poison to kill it, you need to actually shovel out thick growth down to about 6-8 inches, losing top soil, and even that won't stop all of it. There are lots of good cover crops to grow, and if you change your mind about keeping those animals, the cover crops they were keeping under control, won't grow out of control. Combinations of alfalfa, rye, and whatever cover crops that suit the animal are much better for everyone.

Willows are very invasive, lower their branches into the water and start new trees, and will fill in your pond unless you stay on them, which is wet and sloppy work. My pond already has willows, and it takes the whole month of October, when the water is lowest, to maintain the pond. Too much time, if you ask me, and I'm still working on how to simplify it. So lots of caution about what plants to put in your pond, research for invasiveness.

Okay, so for the good news!!

One thing that has turned around my whole growing system is the duckweed that the birds bring in on their feet to the pond. It's the green baby tears looking stuff that eventually will cover the whole surface. Nothing kills it except horrible poison that costs hundreds of dollars, it's an impossible solution. But...........if you use a pool scoop to collect it, and put it on the ground around your fruit trees and around your vegetables, it is one of the most amazing amendments I've ever used! There are 3 times the number of worms where I've used it, and it can't survive without standing water, so it doesn't invade on land, and I just can't say enough good stuff about it. I let it build up and harvest it. I think it's got almost as many good nutrients in it as seaweed. So if you've got it, it's a wonderful thing.

Solar is exciting, but you have to keep your eyes on the batteries all the time, and they don't last that long, most just a few years, so they are an expensive replacement, and they say they recycle them, but I've heard they just dump them in Mexico where they pollute the land. Be sure to keep any solar panels down on the ground where you can keep them clean, wipe off bird poop, and manually turn them if you want to.

And just be sure not to spread out your projects too far apart. The efficiency aspect of the design is about growing all the things you need together to save you a lot of work. And once these things are working together, it is a real pleasure to stand back and realize what you have learned and that you put them there!

Let me know how your projects work out: morningglorylorie@yahoo.com

SweatPea thanks for your insights and vision!

I have the idea that a goat would be a good addition to us as well. I want it to 1) "mow" grass, 2) produce fertilizer, 3) help process tougher compost, blackberries and other things that are usually better chipped, 4) be fun for adults and kids to be around.

We would have trouble if they HAD to have daily care, needed a lot of external food beyond their forage, only thrive in small groups.

Could I raise one (pygmy?) on 1000 sq. ft. of grass?

Actually, I've owned goats before. If you want lawn mowers, look into sheep. (If you don't want to shear them, look into hair sheep.) You can get more of what you are looking for with a sheep. Except that sheep do prefer the small herd thing. Now rabbits will eat grass, but we've usually fed them cut dry grass, not fresh. (I'm not sure, but I think you have to get them used to it gradually, like horses, when they've been on nothing but dry feed.)

Goats are browsers. They will graze, but think of the things that deer like, and that is basically a goat's preference. Goats do eat odd things, and they will eat brush (as well as poison ivy!!), but I am not sure about things with thorns, because they have no top teeth. I wouldn't rely on them as grass mowers. If you stake them out near a tree, they will try for tender leaves and twigs prior to eating any grass. Goats can be fun, but they can also be a pain to keep fenced, and we used to have problems with my pet Nubian climbing on the vehicles in the driveway when she got out. A pygmy might not be as bad with the climbing as bigger breeds ?:| , BUT I've heard pygmies are escape artists supreme. I'm not trying to discourage you, but read up on them first, email breeders, and get as much info as possible. Here are a few links to look at:
http://www.scapegoatsanctuary.com/pages/4/index.htm
http://littlecudchewers.tripod.com/General%20Goat%20Husbandry.htm
http://www.goatwisdom.com/
http://goatconnection.com/
http://www.goatweb.com/discover/index.shtml

I LOVE sheep. They are the most peaceful-looking creatures on earth, and I LOVE wool. Have you raised sheep? I'd be interested in hearing your experiences. I'm not even allowed to have chickens in this neighborhood, but I do want sheep when I move to the country.

Thanks!

Thank you! I don't mind at all... I'll take all the heads' up I can. :8}

So far as the invasives go, yes bamboo can be. I've been doing my homework, and the Giant Moso is supposedly slower spreading than the smaller bamboos. (It can get to 7 inches in diameter, and 75 feet in height.) It takes about 4 years to fully mature, and from what 3 separate people have told me, it is supposedly controlled by regular mowing around the perimeter. The shoots may be eaten when young, too. I will have to mow the grass (hopefully) that will grow around it, anyways, so a pass or two with the lawnmower shouldn't hurt. Since we have 6 acres to play with, I am planning on situating it along a back edge of the property, and DH wants to use it to help control erosion. I've also emailed other hobby growers, and most of them have told me that the problem with the giant stuff is having enough to do what you want with it. (I may cry about this later, but I keep hearing the same thing over and over.)

As for Bermuda, it is just about the only lawn grass type of feed crop that will grow down here. Bahaia and coastal hay are two others, but they are coarse and must be left to grow tall. Not a very good option when venomous snakes are very present in the area. Or St. Augustine, Zoysia, or Centipede, all of which have zero nutritive value. Clovers and rye may be grown, but they will only grow in the winter here. I have seen alfalfa seed sold, but the only alfalfa hay I've seen here was all trucked from out of state and cost no less than $10 per small square bale, so I am guessing it is a winter grower here, if at all. Brown millet can be grown to hold the soil, but that's about all it does. Which is why I keep coming back to Bermuda. I'd at least like to have Alicia Bermuda (which can be cut & dried for hay), but that must be sprigged to start it. If anyone can give me a suggestion for a non-invasive nutritive grass that will take full sun as well as occasional shady areas, tolerates very sandy, poor, acidic soil, as well as high humidity and 95+ degree summer averages, that can be mowed near the house, I'll be all over it. (I've already spoken to the folks at the Extension office.)

I know that the livestock will cost us. Fencing and housing is expensive, and must be maintained. So far as vet bills go, I do plan on doctoring ourselves as much as possible. (We've had to do that with horses and other livestock before.) If we get goats, another expense we will have is a livestock guardian dog. That is where the expensive vet bills come in. (We have an aging Australian Shepherd and my DD's 3 y/o SAR Catahoula, plus DD#2's cat, and my aging ferret.) And between the pets and my little poultry flock, we are already tied down, and must find people to babysit (yes, we have paid) if we are gone much more than overnight. I do more or less understand the livestock angle of things.
DH wants to get a horse for the girls - - talk about work! I grew up with horses, rabbits, poultry, (also cats, dogs, ferrets, etc...), and I had a pet Nubian goat as a teen, so I definitely understand the work and inconveniences from that end of things. I also know if you set up properly and work details out before you get the animals, that cuts down on aggravation immensely. But yes, after hauling hot water in 5-gallon buckets and chopping ice for the horses morning and night in freezing Michigan winters, I understand the commitment. (And breaking bones, getting kicked & stepped on, and spending beaucoup ER hours...) I am trying to research hogs, and the management of meat goats, specifically, and trying to figure out where they'd fit in. (We may just stick with the rabbits and poultry as being the most economical meat source, but goats would be nice for the milk, brush control, and excess kids to sell.) DH wants to raise a hog for the meat, and that could be done on a seasonal basis - - I just don't know what quality we'd get on mostly acorns and hickory nuts.

In addition to tring to find heirloom and OP seeds that will work well for our area, I intend to try to preserve rare livestock breeds, which makes my initial investment in livestock even more expensive, and I probably won't break even. But I am hoping to invest in keeping something worthwhile from disappearing, as well as providing meat for the table and perhaps a little income, as well.

Right now, the pond is a mess. DH had it dug with little planning, and the doofus that dug it, well, let's just say he wasn't as good as he bragged he was. Erosion is a terrible problem, (as well as silt, which makes for a rather septic water condition) which is why I am considering willows. If you have a better suggestion, please let me know. And I'd love to have duckweed, but DH's ducks are on the pond, he won't let me slaughter them, so we're waiting for them to die of natural causes before I can put plants out on the pond. And our two Mallards never leave and come back (the Pekins don't fly) so I don't get free duckweed. Perhaps if I could keep them penned up long enough for it to become established.... ?:| How long does it take to become established? Sometimes I think with the headache the pond has become, perhaps letting willows take over completely might be a good thing.

Solar is definitely a pipe dream at this point. As I said, MS doesn't have any provisions for two-way connections to the grid, and batteries are too expensive. I do want to try solar water heat, but that is passive, no battery backup required. But that requires DH to accept a demand heater as a backup in case of cloudy wx, and he is set against it at this point. Solar power to pump our water would be really nice, (even a direct from inverter system with a switch) and DH was actually looking at that ad for the solar generator & battery setup mounted on a trailer, but right now neither is within our means.

Thanks for posting that reply. I didn't realize that the willows would take over the pond. Even if you weave them into a fedge? I believe upright willows are used for that; do you think they'd be as invasive as weeping willow? (We have a sad little weeping willow struggling about 20 ft from the pond on the bank, and also a corkscrew willow.) I will try to keep this in mind. Also, thank you for the Aussie permaculture link. It will be good to learn as much as possible from others' trials.

Bless you, dear. I really do appreciate it. :x

I have not raised sheep, no.
But I am a fiber junkie, and was a member of a spinner's flock while up in Michigan. I rarely spin here because: a) sliver is expensive to purchase via mail-order, and b)most of the year it's too hot to sit with a ball of wool in your lap to spin. I'd be more into knitting, but I've learned so many different ways to cast on that I cannot seem to remember one clearly enough to do it right!
But LOTS of my former fellow spinner's flock ladies raised sheep, and a friend of mine in Pascagoula raises a mixed flock of Katahdin, Gulf Coast Native, and goats. She keeps hers to keep the grass mowed, and trains her herding dogs on them. I've only raised goats, but some of the requirements are similar, from what I've been told.

They are definitely interesting. Do you have a particular breed in mind? Good luck with your plans! :8}

As for goats being escape artists, I used to think that they were one of the 2 animals God never intended to be kept behind a fence (because they were so good at getting out...the other critter was cats). Believe it or not there was a small flock in the city limits of Waco, TX, a few years ago--bordering a fast and heavily traveled 4-lane avenue. Musta been grandfathered in. They never once got out that I know of--and if they had drivers and neighbors would've made a real stink about it so I suspect they stayed in. It would seem that a 4' chainlink fence is sufficient. Note, there were no stumps or other objects near the fence for them to climb on so that they can jump over.

Never kept sheep...but a neighbor did, also down in TX. I lived a block away (maybe 200 yards) for a couple years before I knew they were there...and I walked by the place almost weekly during nice weather. They were that quiet--don't know if she helped them deal with the heat somehow or not, but they did OK in TX which I really would not have expected.