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Rotenone versus carbaryl?

I am having no end of trouble with cucumber beetles, and I read that rotenone was permitted for organic gardening. Here is where things get strange...

Apparently, distributers of rotenone in Canada are going to switch to the ingredient carbaryl because Health Canada ordered more testing on rotenone, which the companies don't want to pay for.

From my research, rotenone is a natural product coming from the root of a plant, while carbaryl appears more dangerous.

Is it just me, or is it strange that rotenone is being replaced with carbaryl on the Canadian markets?
 
It's happening here, too, Ester. Don't know the exact reason, but as we all know, organic doesn't mean good. I can no longer get a pyrethrum-rotenone mix...so I've switch to Thuricide (BT-K) and neem oil. But today I just used a little soapy water (Dr. B's castille soap) on my squash beetles.

There are big brains around here...someone will know what's best for cucumber beetles. I have loads of cukes but I don't believe I've ever even seen that bug!
 
MD Eastern Shore, Zone 7
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I tried finding rotenone this year too and didn't have any luck. I thought I was going crazy.
 
Dave M - Now blogging at: http://ofgardensandkitchens.blogspot.com/
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Although there are some few people that will tell you Rotenoine is an acceptable organic pesticide it was disapllowed several years ago because it is very broad spectrum and persistant in the environment. Carbaryl is a synthetic organophosphate that has never been a permitted organic pesticide.
Neem Oil products, although still broad spectrum, have been found to be effective controls for Cucumber Beetles as are pyrethrin based products. Any pesticide needs ot be used with due care, however since most will also kill off any predators of the problem you have as well as the problem. This web site may provide some help for now and the future.
https://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/cucumberbeetle.html
 

The sign of a good gardener is not a green thumb, it is brown knees.

West central Michigan along the lakeshore.

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I prefer not to use any pesticides but last year the cuke beetles transferred bacterial wilt to my cukes and they died in spite of the yellow sticky traps that I used so this year I may try some Neem. Should I spray the whole cuke plant? Is it a contact insecticide?
 

 Zone 7b  Southeastern PA

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Wikipedia has a good article about Rotenone. It is worth a read if you are considering using Rotenone As has been said, it is getting very hard to find any Rotenone. It is not on the shelves of garden stores any more. I think it is because there is a limited amount available and the fisheries snap it up to kill fish.

Wiki says that Rotenone was banned from the Oraganic list of permissibles, but has since been reapproved.
 

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Gardening at 5000 ft. elevation in Northern Utah  Zone 5

Have a great gardening day!

http://donce.lofthouse.com/jam...lanting/planting.htm

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No, neem is not a contact killer.(although the ones that were sprayed stopped what they were doing) In fact, it is most effective if eaten by the pest because it causes them to stop eating, mating, drinking and they eventually die. So you really don't see an immediate reaction but you will gradually see a reduction in the number of eating pests.
 
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I sprayed the squash because the cucumber beetles were out again..about a week ago...haven't seen anymore so far.
 
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quote:
eating, mating, drinking and they eventually die


After all, what good is life with out food, wine, and love?
 
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quote:
Originally posted by brownrexx:
I prefer not to use any pesticides but last year the cuke beetles transferred bacterial wilt to my cukes and they died in spite of the yellow sticky traps that I used so this year I may try some Neem. Should I spray the whole cuke plant? Is it a contact insecticide?

I know the frustration you guys are going through. The problem with this disease, and the way it is transferred, the bug that transferred it could die eventually, but the plant could still get the disease - all it has to do is have the bug land on it! The same with the Surround I spray on these, and many other things. If they are bugs eating the plants, it works great, but for a transfer disease, even though the bug doesn't like the feel of the Surround, and flies away quickly, the damage is done. Also, there is the problem of new leaves constantly appearing...

My next attempt to control these bugs (and hopefully that disease) is to cover the entire fence on both sides with light fabric. I got a 250 ft roll to cover some of my peppers with every season, so I have a lot of extra! Only problem is that I will have to uncover frequently, in the beginning especially, to train the plants up the fence. I may do half this way, to compare methods.

The only other thing that works somewhat is using the only resistant cuke out there - County Fair. Poona Keera is somewhat resistant, but I had it fall to that disease one season, despite success other seasons.
 

Dave    in Woodbury, NJ  zone 6B

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This is all interesting stuff. But what I still don't understand is why rotenone is being phased out and replaced with carbaryl. Carbaryl looks much more nasty from what I can understand.
 
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Only people who have no clue what organic gardeneing is all about would even suggest using carbaryl, a synthetic organophosphate the has never been accepted by organic gardeners as a potential product.
 

The sign of a good gardener is not a green thumb, it is brown knees.

West central Michigan along the lakeshore.

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This may help (or confuse) you:

http://www.nicholas.duke.edu/thegreengrok/rotenone

As I read it:

Rotenone is extremely toxic to fish.

EPA, and other governments like Canada (and the EU had concerns over human exposure for issues like Parkinson's disease), said in 2006 if companies wanted to continue marketing Rotenone for terrestrial use there would have to be more research provided as to it's safety and how to control accidental exposure to fish.

The companies all pretty much said, "Uh, we'll just stop selling it for any use other then as a piscicide (fish killer) if you give us five years to transition and sell off remaining inventories."

And the end date for shipments from the warehouses is 14 July 2011.

Carbryl isn't being substituted as necessarily safer, just the companies have research on it they can show the regulators. They don't have the comparable research on Rotenone.

Probably a follow the money issue, the industry didn't see enough money to be made with Rotenone and no way for them to fund their own research effectively (i.e. why would one or two or three companies pay for the research to get usage to continue to be allowed, which would benefit competitors who didn't pay for it...at least the initial studies for synthetics the company that develops it have a pay-back time during the patent period and while trade secrets how they make it are still unique). This is seems like the type of science the land grant Universities used to be able to do to benefit an entire industry/sector.

It's still used as a piscicide because it's the only thing the biologists consider 100% effective at killing fish. There's two major needs for that -- one is controlling invasive species (Fish & Game Departments will kill off all fish in a water body, then re-introduce only native species). I believe some fish farms also use it, but it's not as clear to me why...I think it may be to "sanitize" ponds after harvesting by making sure there's no fish they missed that may stay around to eat hatchlings or be disease reservoirs, but I'm not entirely clear on that farming use.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by pepperhead212:

The only other thing that works somewhat is using the only resistant cuke out there - County Fair. Poona Keera is somewhat resistant, but I had it fall to that disease one season, despite success other seasons.


I read about County Fair this spring and I looked for the seeds but to no avail. I didn't check seed catalogs. Has anyone bought this variety and could tell me where?

I also bought some Neem yesterday and since it is toxic to honeybees I hate to use it but CLAUDE, I did see on the label that it workds on Squash vine borers.

Has anyone previously tried using Neen to prevent SVB's? Does it really work? I have my doubts or we would probably have heard about it.
 

 Zone 7b  Southeastern PA

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quote:
Originally posted by brownrexx:
I read about County Fair this spring and I looked for the seeds but to no avail. I didn't check seed catalogs. Has anyone bought this variety and could tell me where?

I also bought some Neem yesterday and since it is toxic to honeybees I hate to use it but CLAUDE, I did see on the label that it workds on Squash vine borers.

Has anyone previously tried using Neen to prevent SVB's? Does it really work? I have my doubts or we would probably have heard about it.

Don't get your hopes up for stopping SVBs with neem. It didn't work for me. As with many other things, it either washes off enough that it doesn't deter them, or there is new growth where they lay their eggs, and all it takes is one larva...

I got my county fair at gourmet seeds. They were a little expensive, but had several varieties I had trouble finding.
 

Dave    in Woodbury, NJ  zone 6B

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Neem is effective to munching pests. They have to eat it for it to be effective. You are saposto spray very early in the am or late. (While the honeybees are still sleeping-it is not SAPOSTO hurt the bees if it's used correctly.) It is effective as a fungicide as well. If the SVB lays the eggs and you have sprayed and they eat into the stems, "Good night" however, the adult would have to eat the plant too. IDK if it does. If the adult is just laying eggs and flying around, it's going to take constant dilligence to get every one, no? According to what I read, eventually the neem becomes systemic within the plant. So timing is important. It is not knock down effective. But it works. The only questionable item that I found on neem was that it causes spontaneous abortions in testing animals, so I would not use it if I was pregnant.
 
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Neem oil products a broad spectrum poisons and like any broad spectrum poison they should be used with care, and only when needed.
http://www.hort.uconn.edu/ipm/homegrnd/htms/neem.htm
 

The sign of a good gardener is not a green thumb, it is brown knees.

West central Michigan along the lakeshore.

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